Crisis in Egypt & Middle East!

delft

Brigadier
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

The Daily Telegraph published an article a short while ago, by its financial analyst, doubting the stability of Saudi Arabia, especially the attitude of the Shia population in the oil producing districts.
As for the Egyptian army, its chief Tantawi is 79. Younger officers have profit much less from the US bribes and to many of them the policy with respect to Gaza must be shameful. Also most officers in South America are partly trained in and by the US, but US influence has decreased significantly.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

I would say Algeria is the nation which is now closest to a "repeat" of Tunisia and Egypt. In Syria, the regime is more repressive and better suited to riding it out. In Yemen, 80% of the country is under the control of tribes who don't want anything to do with Facebook, pretty girls waving freedom signs in the streets and all that.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

Just found T's sources on China demonizing the protests. Very BAD China demonizing the protesters.

I was thinking of the following, actually.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The headline in the People’s Daily Friday warned that “Malfunction” in Egypt “is Good for No One.” Today, the papers picked up the theme and conjured, for its people, the image of a stable state undone by people power. “If Egypt becomes chaotic, it will be like a second Iran and the world would face disaster,” according to the Global Times. American politicians are “hesitating” to support the revolt, it added, because “they are eager to open the door to Middle East democracy, beginning with Egypt, but they are not sure if there is a beauty or a demon behind that door.”

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Censoring the Internet is not the only approach. The Chinese government has also tried to get out ahead of the discussion, framing the Egyptian protests in a few editorials and articles in state-controlled news publications as a chaotic affair that embodies the pitfalls of trying to plant democracy in countries that are not quite ready for it — a line China’s leaders have long held.

The English-language edition of Global Times, a populist newspaper, ran an editorial on Sunday about the Tunisian and Egyptian protests with the headline “Color revolutions will not bring about real democracy.” Though Global Times is not the official mouthpiece of the Communist Party, the message of the editorial was consistent with official thinking, saying bluntly that whether democracy “is applicable in other countries is in question, as more and more unsuccessful examples arise.”

“The official Chinese media is reporting the Egypt events — it’s no longer possible for Xinhua and other official media to remain credible if they hide international news that people can learn from the Internet,” said Susan L. Shirk, a professor at the University of California, San Diego, who served as assistant deputy secretary of state during the Clinton administration. “But they reduce the risk that some Chinese might want to emulate them by describing them as 'anti-government riots.'"

Dolcevita, try harder next time. :)

Also, the next government must be pro-US or else it is a racist unstable state?

I suggest you not make stuff up. I was talking about the circumstances in which US influence in Egypt would be displaced. The US has given Egypt much assistance over the years and will continue to do so. There's no reason to reject that. There's even less to replace the US with China given China's anti-democratic attitude. The US might have been happy with Mubarak as leader, but China liked him just as much - maybe even more.

Therefore, the only reason I can see the US being dumped in favour of China would be if there was a racist backlash, because in terms of consistent financial support and interest in seeing a liberal democracy, the US is the obvious country to stick with.
 
Last edited:
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

I was thinking of the following, actually.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




Dolcevita, try harder next time. :)



I suggest you not make stuff up. I was talking about the circumstances in which US influence in Egypt would be displaced. The US has given Egypt much assistance over the years and will continue to do so. There's no reason to reject that. There's even less to replace the US with China given China's anti-democratic attitude. The US might have been happy with Mubarak as leader, but China liked him just as much - maybe even more.

Therefore, the only reason I can see the US being dumped in favour of China would be if there was a racist backlash, because in terms of consistent financial support and interest in seeing a liberal democracy, the US is the obvious country to stick with.

Very funny T. All the demonizing I see are NY TImes demonizing China's intentions. Try again.

Now. What do you exactly mean by "The only realistic way Egypt could replace the US in terms of influence would be if there was a racist backlash and the next stable government said "let's ally ourselves with non-whites". "

Elaborate what scenario you meant if the US is to loose influence. You explicitly stated that it is racially motivated against whites for this to happen. You are again equating non-pro-us government as against white race. Try again T. Not following you there.

Also when was this a China against US influence affair. This is about the will of the people against their dictator. You are so blinded by hatred and prejudice to see this though.
 
Last edited:

Mr T

Senior Member
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

Very funny T. All the demonizing I see are NY TImes demonizing China's intentions.

You can deny all you like, it's clear from both the NYT and New Yorker (NOT the same publications) that the Chinese media was pushing a "chaotic Egypt is dangerous" line.

Not following you there.

That's not my problem. I've summed up why there is no logical reason to ditch the US in favour of China. If you can think of a reason other than racism why a new democratic Egyptian government would choose China over the US, please put it forward.

Also when was this a China against US influence affair.

When Ting made reference to views that it was exactly that. That's what I was responding to.

Also, if you start to accuse me of being "blinded by hatred and prejudice" then you're clearly losing the discussion. That's the only reason to bring personal attacks in.
 
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

You can deny all you like, it's clear from both the NYT and New Yorker (NOT the same publications) that the Chinese media was pushing a "chaotic Egypt is dangerous" line.



That's not my problem. I've summed up why there is no logical reason to ditch the US in favour of China. If you can think of a reason other than racism why a new democratic Egyptian government would choose China over the US, please put it forward.



When Ting made reference to views that it was exactly that. That's what I was responding to.

Also, if you start to accuse me of being "blinded by hatred and prejudice" then you're clearly losing the discussion. That's the only reason to bring personal attacks in.

T. You can troll as much as you like but "chaotic Egypt is dangerous" line is not the same as China Demonizing the protester. Doesn't change fact that you have not been truthful. It is obvious a chaotic Egypt is not good and has nothing to do with China demonizing the protestor.

Also you summurized a lost of US influence is racially motivated. You have failed to provide a rational for such statement, Hence, the burden is on you to provide a proof.

I have not brought any personal attacks on you and have given you oppurtunity to correct a factual lie up to now. It is you who have proven yourself untruthful.

Not getting anywhere now are we. No good will come from any further discussion
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

T. You can troll as much as you like but "chaotic Egypt is dangerous" line is not the same as China Demonizing the protester.

In my view China was demonising the protests (and by association the people taking part) by focusing on the "chaos" rather than supplying any information as to why people were protesting or sympathising with their cause.

However, would you at least accept that China was pushing a "protests = chaos = bad, Mubarak = stable = good" line through the media?

Also you summurized a lost of US influence is racially motivated.

For the second time, I said no such thing.

I said that the only realistic way Egypt would ditch the US for China was if there was a racist backlash. The US could lose influence for different reasons - such as if it stopped being interested in Egypt. But I am addressing the idea (mentioned by Ting in an above post) that US influence could be replaced by Chinese influence as a result of these protests.

This is a very simple concept to grasp.

I have not brought any personal attacks on you and have given you oppurtunity to correct a factual lie up to now.

You accused me of being "blinded by hatred and prejudice". That is a personal attack. If you wish to assert that is an objective statement, back it up with some evidence. Or withdraw your allegation against me.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

Dolcevita and Mr T, you both need to back off and cool down

I would say though that to equate disapproval of potential chaos with active approval of Mubarak is a mistake. China dislikes chaotic situations period and in keeping with its non-interference policy will recognise and deal with the countries legitimate government. If the Government is going to change then China wants it done in an orderly, stable and legitimate way, so it has no doubt about the legitimacy of that new government. Conversely, where there is chaos and a disorderly transfer, there is greater scope for a non legitimate government to be installed. This is real dilemma for the PRC as it risks breaching its non-interference policy as recognising a non-legitimate government could easily be taken as interference and damage its standing with if a subsequent legitimate government, should it become installed.
 

akihh

New Member
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

I said that the only realistic way Egypt would ditch the US for China was if there was a racist backlash. The US could lose influence for different reasons - such as if it stopped being interested in Egypt. But I am addressing the idea (mentioned by Ting in an above post) that US influence could be replaced by Chinese influence as a result of these protests.

US could also lose it's influence if it comes to spotlight how close the anti-terror co-operation has been with egyptian security apparatuses. If egyptian political prisoners are released they might have some nasty stories about torture to extract information for americans and so on, worst case would be that US personnel has been involved in interrogations. That could possibly create abu graib - type scandal in egypt which would create huge backslash amongst egyptian people and thus affect the next government.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Re: Crisis in Egypt!

Dolcevita and Mr T, you both need to back off and cool down

I would say though that to equate disapproval of potential chaos with active approval of Mubarak is a mistake. China dislikes chaotic situations period and in keeping with its non-interference policy will recognise and deal with the countries legitimate government. If the Government is going to change then China wants it done in an orderly, stable and legitimate way, so it has no doubt about the legitimacy of that new government. Conversely, where there is chaos and a disorderly transfer, there is greater scope for a non legitimate government to be installed. This is real dilemma for the PRC as it risks breaching its non-interference policy as recognising a non-legitimate government could easily be taken as interference and damage its standing with if a subsequent legitimate government, should it become installed.

China's policy of non interference is increasingly. viewed as a "copout" by many. Thats's understandly so in the light of her in not restraining Omar Al Bashir againg'st the South Sudanese before the practice of cultural genocide was well implented with the use of Chinese supplied weapons.
It going to be interesting to see what sort of relationship China is able to form with the new country of South Sudan.

I find Chinese news reports on the Egyptian saga , greatly underwhelming. Its is refraining from reporting on the core issue of the problem which is the desire of the people to be free of an opressive authorian rule, and the desire for a democratically elected governenment, but I suppose that can hardly be surprising.
I should imagine they are worried these events may be repeated in Pakistan and carried on through to Central Asia

Some time in the future and closer to home the oppressed in the "Stans"could China use as a whipping boy in an attempt to throw off their despotic governments . Nationalism could be one of many rallying calls with the deals China has struck with these despotic governments . As an example, all so slowly small disputed border areas from Kazakhstan a few years ago and more recently Tajikistan, Kyrgystan have been added to China at the expense of these little states. Land leasing adjacent productive land to the Chinese by authoritative governments against the wishes of its people could provide the seeds of discord decades later as they view it as territorial; expansion through stealth. especially if China was at a later date , to repeat these demands.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


"New guestworkers are coming to the cotton and rice fields of southern Tajikistan, and they are already sowing seeds of discontent. Locals are outraged at the prospect of Chinese farmers arriving to work Tajik land, following Dushanbe's decision last week to lease out 2,000 hectares of land to the Uyghur Autonomous Region in western China.

That deal has added to simmering anger over the Tajik parliament decision just a week earlier to cede some 1,100 square kilometers of Tajik land (about 1% of the county's total land area) to China.

Many Tajiks, including Bakhtiyor, a young man interviewed by RFE/RL's Tajik Service on the streets of Dushanbe who gave only his first name, reacted sharply to the decision.

"Why do they give land to China? There are no Tajiks [interested in it]? They do not give land to Tajiks. People live in desperate conditions... They should give land to our poor people," he said. ..................
 
Last edited:
Top