COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I agree with your assessment of Sino-Russian relationship.

But that's exactly my point, why help to such an extent ("cooperate with Russia even if the vast majority or even all of the benefits go to Russia")? We should not have to forgo our interests just to help others, we are still helping by normal Sino-Russia cooperation.
God damned it this has gone on for way way too long. I'm saying we should help them if needed, we can reach beyond mutual benefits and allow them commensalism (one side benefits while the other side is unharmed) if they need it. But they don't need it so we don't need to do that either. That's why China's not throwing them any bones in the C929 and they don't care either so they'll go if they don't like the terms. That's it. We don't need to do anything for them because they're strong and they don't need it. But we should be willing to do so if they did.

Read all the ifs in there and stop asking me why we need to throw away our benefits to help them now, because I never said that.
 

xia3962243

Banned Idiot
Registered Member
God damned it this has gone on for way way too long. I'm saying we should help them if needed, we can reach beyond mutual benefits and allow them commensalism (one side benefits while the other side is unharmed) if they need it. But they don't need it so we don't need to do that either. That's why China's not throwing them any bones in the C929 and they don't care either so they'll go if they don't like the terms. That's it. We don't need to do anything for them because they're strong and they don't need it. But we should be willing to do so if they did.

Read all the ifs in there and stop asking me why we need to throw away our benefits to help them now, because I never said that.
huang er hehe
 

InfamousMeow

Junior Member
Registered Member
Read all the ifs in there and stop asking me why we need to throw away our benefits to help them now, because I never said that.
What you said is exactly the thing I asked you about, you did say it!

Additionally, Russia is an enemy of the US. To strengthen the enemy of your enemy is to aid yourself. At this point, I would cooperate with Russia even if the vast majority or even all of the benefits go to Russia. As long as China is not harmed, helping Russia is helping China.
I don't read any if in this specific paragraph, the ifs in the previous paragraph are specific to China and Russia getting over their past and has nothing to do with what you said in this paragraph. And you specifically said: "At this point, I would cooperate with Russia even if the vast majority or even all of the benefits go to Russia.”
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
What you said is exactly the thing I asked you about, you did say it!


I don't read any if in this specific paragraph, the ifs in the previous paragraph are specific to China and Russia getting over their past and has nothing to do with what you said in this paragraph. And you specifically said: "At this point, I would cooperate with Russia even if the vast majority or even all of the benefits go to Russia.”
At this point, I would. I would be willing to. Because if they asked, then they need it. But they are not asking for it; they are saying they don't need it and will back out so obviously, there is nothing further to do on our end.

I see how you read it that way but I never meant to offer someone unwanted help.
 

InfamousMeow

Junior Member
Registered Member
At this point, I would. I would be willing to. Because if they asked, then they need it. But they are not asking for it; they are saying they don't need it and will back out so obviously, there is nothing further to do on our end.

I see how you read it that way but I never meant to offer someone unwanted help.
Now I understand! :)
 

OppositeDay

Senior Member
Registered Member
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This is the WeChat public account article Shilao and crew quoted in their latest podcast. It's written by Zhang Junen, a senior aviation engineer. Here's the author's very frank assessment on Russia as a collaborator

"积我和我的不少前辈的经验,从苏联到俄罗斯,他们始终不是一个合格的国际合作者。在与他们的交往中,他们常常表现出不加掩饰的利己主义,严重缺乏契约精神,骨子里的大国沙文主义和对我们的轻慢与不屑,都影响着合作推进与善始善终。回顾历史,环顾当下,中俄之间富有成效的科技与工业合作,成功案例并不多见,我们应该对此有清醒认识。"

edited DeepL translation:

"In my experience and that of my predecessors, from the Soviet Union to Russia, they have never been an adequate international collaborator. In our dealings with them, they often showed undisguised selfishness, a serious lack of respect for contracts, ingrained great power chauvinism, and deep-seated contempt and disdain for us, all of which affected the advancement and successful conclusion of the collaboration. Looking back at history and at the present, there are not many successful cases of fruitful technological and industrial cooperation between Russia and China, and we should be clear-headed about it."

Mr Zhang thinks the recent Airbus order is also sending Russia a message that China has zero intention to sever ties with Western commercial aviation industry. Mr Zhang also makes it clear that the a commercial aviation project can only be truly successful if it's commercially successful, and Russia wants to take the project to a direction that's not conducive to commercial success. You can tell Mr. Zhang just can't wait for Russia to withdraw from CR-929.
 

Sleepyjam

Junior Member
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This is the WeChat public account article Shilao and crew quoted in their latest podcast. It's written by Zhang Junen, a senior aviation engineer. Here's the author's very frank assessment on Russia as a collaborator

"积我和我的不少前辈的经验,从苏联到俄罗斯,他们始终不是一个合格的国际合作者。在与他们的交往中,他们常常表现出不加掩饰的利己主义,严重缺乏契约精神,骨子里的大国沙文主义和对我们的轻慢与不屑,都影响着合作推进与善始善终。回顾历史,环顾当下,中俄之间富有成效的科技与工业合作,成功案例并不多见,我们应该对此有清醒认识。"

edited DeepL translation:

"In my experience and that of my predecessors, from the Soviet Union to Russia, they have never been an adequate international collaborator. In our dealings with them, they often showed undisguised selfishness, a serious lack of respect for contracts, ingrained great power chauvinism, and deep-seated contempt and disdain for us, all of which affected the advancement and successful conclusion of the collaboration. Looking back at history and at the present, there are not many successful cases of fruitful technological and industrial cooperation between Russia and China, and we should be clear-headed about it."

Mr Zhang thinks the recent Airbus order is also sending Russia a message that China has zero intention to sever ties with Western commercial aviation industry. Mr Zhang also makes it clear that the a commercial aviation project can only be truly successful if it's commercially successful, and Russia wants to take the project to a direction that's not conducive to commercial success. You can tell Mr. Zhang just can't wait for Russia to withdraw from CR-929.
He’s wrong. The airbus order is simply out of necessity, the west is even less reliable than Russia considering the possibility of sanctions and war over Taiwan.
 

OppositeDay

Senior Member
Registered Member
He’s wrong. The airbus order is simply out of necessity, the west is even less reliable than Russia considering the possibility of sanctions and war over Taiwan.

It could be many things at the same time.

Also it's not just about who's more reliable. Being more reliable doesn't count very much if it precludes you from having a commercially viable product.
 

Bob Smith

Junior Member
Registered Member
He’s wrong. The airbus order is simply out of necessity, the west is even less reliable than Russia considering the possibility of sanctions and war over Taiwan.
If we're talking historically, Russia is the only European power to take land from China and not return it. I don't remember what Russia has been reliable about lately over the west that wasn't out of necessity, can you name something? I'm not even a Westphile, just don't see Russia as anything more than "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of relationship. On that part, I'm glad Russia is taking the heat off China by invading Ukraine.
 
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