COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

Blitzo · Jul 6, 2022

xia3962243 said:
shabi

You're no longer making constructive discussions, and one liner throwaway responses are unacceptable.

Your previous posts on the matter, which were slightly more constructive, were also still unnecessarily vitriolic.

One week warning ban, one one by next violation.

Philister · Jul 6, 2022

pmc said:
Russian managed to create route network for SSJ in 20 to 30 airports. It can deal with extreme heat of Middleast and extreme cold near Arctic. fundamental engineering design is solid thats why SSJ-R is created. It has that wide cabin for long range flights. I think Thai airforce and Kazakh government also using it as business jet. this big achievement considering the initial investment.
PW1000G is gone. they have in few aircrafts for tests. The plane will not enter with two different engines.
Russians first has to master mass production of composite wing on MS21 before this technology can be reliably applied to widebody. in mean time they are re-creating IL96M that will test new systems and engines for wide body. Once everything are production, tested and certified than some future date they can contribute to a composite wing, new engine, subsystems to a wide body aircraft. and that wide body has to meet Russian requirements. Just the Russian government use Tu-214 can stay in air 11 to 13 hours. so i expect they will want wide body next generation stay in air 20 to 24hours on twin engine. just by looking at Europe airspace that is blocked they will need long range to reach Latin America. the point i am making is these are deep engineering skills. it simply not possible that two different organization work on same project. they can supply some parts but running a project together is a tall order.

Really? Reliability? OOA composite and PW-1000G? I wonder why Irish operator wanted to return theirs?
As for government orders , they were never that picky anyway.
Despite the large percentage of imported material/subsystems, the reliability issues ,the horrible finish, there lies a simple question: if they are good as they claimed to be , why are they so rare? They aren’t green hands and don’t blame politics cuz Russian tanks are everywhere.
Composite wings ha, turned out they are importing carbon fiber from japan&china, and OOA isn’t about innovation but the price of autoclave was high

pmc · Jul 6, 2022

Philister said:
Really? Reliability? OOA composite and PW-1000G? I wonder why Irish operator wanted to return theirs?

One operator reliability issue does not make the engine unreliable. they have built advance version of that engine. new tech always take time.

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Philister said:
As for government orders , they were never that picky anyway.
Despite the large percentage of imported material/subsystems, the reliability issues ,the horrible finish, there lies a simple question: if they are good as they claimed to be , why are they so rare? They aren’t green hands and don’t blame politics cuz Russian tanks are everywhere.
Composite wings ha, turned out they are importing carbon fiber from japan&china, and OOA isn’t about innovation but the price of autoclave was high

first wings were built with western tech but Russia manage to built it domestically. but long term reliability will be only known after aircraft is in service for few years. so this too early to apply this manufacturing tech to much larger aircraft like C929.

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Your understanding of aviation industry is very minimum. Sukhoi SSJ is rare as it has $1.5b of investment spread over a decade. so the production rate, global support structure reflect that investment. Government or Airforce aircraft cabins are VIP with long range comfort in mind. these aircraft does not have spare in many international hubs so they need to be super reliable and relatively high speed for its size. Thailand is not located near to Superjet service center unless Thai airforce built for it. they did presentation to bring US content below 10% but it still not resolve the problem as European content also came under sanction it. now entirely new plane SSJ-R will be created.

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Philister · Jul 6, 2022

pmc said:
One operator reliability issue does not make the engine unreliable. they have built advance version of that engine. new tech always take time.

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first wings were built with western tech but Russia manage to built it domestically. but long term reliability will be only known after aircraft is in service for few years. so this too early to apply this manufacturing tech to much larger aircraft like C929.

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Your understanding of aviation industry is very minimum. Sukhoi SSJ is rare as it has $1.5b of investment spread over a decade. so the production rate, global support structure reflect that investment. Government or Airforce aircraft cabins are VIP with long range comfort in mind. these aircraft does not have spare in many international hubs so they need to be super reliable and relatively high speed for its size. Thailand is not located near to Superjet service center unless Thai airforce built for it. they did presentation to bring US content below 10% but it still not resolve the problem as European content also came under sanction it. now entirely new plane SSJ-R will be created.

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How’s that PW-1000G performing on A-321Neo then? It is undoubtedly a bad engine, at least at that time , and why would you think the Irish company was complaining about the engine?
For technical support issue, simple as: if you couldn’t build a proper network in 30years, you wouldn’t make it in next 30years either, the good old days for Russian aviation industry has long gone.
And for government order? You would be surprised if you know how many Illushins are still being operated by government globally, and in Thailand, the dedicated VIP vehicle is B-737, and when is Kazakhstan worth mentioning? Like they had many choices.
If your biggest partner (China and India) don’t even consider your offer, I guess there are much more issues with the aircraft itself than “the net work”

Philister · Jul 6, 2022

In addition, “western technology was used to produce the first wing”, I don’t really know what particular tech you mentioned, but they use Japanese carbon fiber before Crimea and Chinese post Crimea, there are infos about they managed to make their own till 2021, but just like their IIR sensor in about 2019, information was vague and there are no available evidence to back up their claims

pmc · Jul 6, 2022

Philister said:
How’s that PW-1000G performing on A-321Neo then? It is undoubtedly a bad engine, at least at that time , and why would you think the Irish company was complaining about the engine?
For technical support issue, simple as: if you couldn’t build a proper network in 30years, you wouldn’t make it in next 30years either, the good old days for Russian aviation industry has long gone.

Russia has been testing this engine on MS21 for few years. Russia do tests to the extremes. so i am not sure why you bring Irish example which is basically a service based economy. 30 year nothing when you understand how difficult this transition from Soviet era with creating assembly lines for all class of aircraft in new and modernized factories. Airbus and Boeing dont make all class of aircraft and if they produce the factories are spread around the world. That global supply chain model does not suit Russia. It is Airbus/Boeing that had Engineering center in Russia. it is Airbus/Boeing that need Russian titanium/Palladium. They will face difficulties once current agreements/stocks runs out. This assume that can keep lights on current electricity prices.

Philister said:
And for government order? You would be surprised if you know how many Illushins are still being operated by government globally, and in Thailand, the dedicated VIP vehicle is B-737, and when is Kazakhstan worth mentioning? Like they had many choices.
If your biggest partner (China and India) don’t even consider your offer, I guess there are much more issues with the aircraft itself than “the net work”

its Thai airforce. i am sure they have done competitive tests and know what they bought.

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China and India are too used to Western airlines. I am sure they will come under pressure as West face economic decline and West will have to take more money from India/China on every engineering product. Russia will not follow them and has quickly disposed off Western jets from regional airports. Unlike other countries Russian airports are considerable distance so they have the experience to apply to MS21 and any wide body aircraft.

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pmc · Jul 6, 2022

Philister said:
In addition, “western technology was used to produce the first wing”, I don’t really know what particular tech you mentioned, but they use Japanese carbon fiber before Crimea and Chinese post Crimea, there are infos about they managed to make their own till 2021, but just like their IIR sensor in about 2019, information was vague and there are no available evidence to back up their claims

i am referring to this one.

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latenlazy · Jul 6, 2022

pmc said:
Russia has been testing this engine on MS21 for few years. Russia do tests to the extremes. so i am not sure why you bring Irish example which is basically a service based economy.

Testing duration and testing conditions between different projects or companies or countries can all sound the same on paper, but that doesn’t always translate to same testing quality, and it definitely doesn’t always translate to consistent production quality or reliability.

I can believe that Russia has very good IP. But good IP does not always translate to good product.

pmc · Jul 6, 2022

latenlazy said:
Testing duration and testing conditions between different projects or companies or countries can all sound the same on paper, but that doesn’t always translate to same testing quality, and it definitely doesn’t always translate to consistent production quality or reliability.

I can believe that Russia has very good IP. But good IP does not always translate to good product.

They are very similar if the product has to get same certification goals. Europeans were directly working on Russian projects to get the certification. i am sure Russians were closely observing it. I dont see flight delays and cancelation on Russian airports like in West. so i am not sure from where product, operational and manufacturing quality inconsistency comes from.

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Russian does not have global support infrastructure so there planes need to fly in more limited airports. This may not be viable for large countries like India or China who travel to Western centric support system. Chinese or Indian flying to Singapore or Japan better not use Russian aircraft. but i think in process of de-globalization will ultimately impact Airbus and Boeing to make there product much more expensive once current contracts run out. Russia will be able to create its own niche with its like minded countries.

latenlazy · Jul 6, 2022

pmc said:
They are very similar if the product has to get same certification goals. Europeans were directly working on Russian projects to get the certification. i am sure Russians were closely observing it. I dont see flight delays and cancelation on Russian airports like in West. so i am not sure from where product, operational and manufacturing quality inconsistency comes from.

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Russian does not have global support infrastructure so there planes need to fly in more limited airports. This may not be viable for large countries like India or China who travel to Western centric support system. Chinese or Indian flying to Singapore or Japan better not use Russian aircraft. but i think in process of de-globalization will ultimately impact Airbus and Boeing to make there product much more expensive once current contracts run out. Russia will be able to create its own niche with its like minded countries.

Certification follows product design, not production quality. If your production process isn’t tightly controlled to meet the same quality as your verification prototypes certification is a meaningless indicator of product reliability.

COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

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