COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

Philister · Jul 5, 2022

OppositeDay said:
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This is the WeChat public account article Shilao and crew quoted in their latest podcast. It's written by Zhang Junen, a senior aviation engineer. Here's the author's very frank assessment on Russia as a collaborator

"积我和我的不少前辈的经验，从苏联到俄罗斯，他们始终不是一个合格的国际合作者。在与他们的交往中，他们常常表现出不加掩饰的利己主义，严重缺乏契约精神，骨子里的大国沙文主义和对我们的轻慢与不屑，都影响着合作推进与善始善终。回顾历史，环顾当下，中俄之间富有成效的科技与工业合作，成功案例并不多见，我们应该对此有清醒认识。"

edited DeepL translation:

"In my experience and that of my predecessors, from the Soviet Union to Russia, they have never been an adequate international collaborator. In our dealings with them, they often showed undisguised selfishness, a serious lack of respect for contracts, ingrained great power chauvinism, and deep-seated contempt and disdain for us, all of which affected the advancement and successful conclusion of the collaboration. Looking back at history and at the present, there are not many successful cases of fruitful technological and industrial cooperation between Russia and China, and we should be clear-headed about it."

Mr Zhang thinks the recent Airbus order is also sending Russia a message that China has zero intention to sever ties with Western commercial aviation industry. Mr Zhang also makes it clear that the a commercial aviation project can only be truly successful if it's commercially successful, and Russia wants to take the project to a direction that's not conducive to commercial success. You can tell Mr. Zhang just can't wait for Russia to withdraw from CR-929.

Can’t wait for Russia to withdraw, joint development with Russians never work out, the same case applies to heavy helicopter project, at this point, they are useless deadweight in almost every single aspect, don’t lecture me about the experience thing, reality is: they’ve never build one successful airliner through decades of effort, don’t blame the west for sanctions ,they are just noob.

Sleepyjam · Jul 5, 2022

OppositeDay said:
It could be many things at the same time.

Also it's not just about who's more reliable. Being more reliable doesn't count very much if it precludes you from having a commercially viable product.

No, airbus was the only choice at this time, they aren’t even related to the cr929. What exactly would the act of not sending a message look like? Even 1% contribution would be better than 0% and wasted effort.

Sleepyjam · Jul 5, 2022

Bob Smith said:
If we're talking historically, Russia is the only European power to take land from China and not return it. I don't remember what Russia has been reliable about lately over the west that wasn't out of necessity, can you name something? I'm not even a Westphile, just don't see Russia as anything more than "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of relationship. On that part, I'm glad Russia is taking the heat off China by invading Ukraine.

I am referring to the ability to fulfill contracts and not resorting to sanctions with regards to China, reading comprehension. Commodities such as oil and gas, military hardware, etc. So how much has Russia sanctioned China as compared to the west? I guess its the same according to your logic.

Bob Smith · Jul 5, 2022

Sleepyjam said:
I am referring to the ability to fulfill contracts and not resorting to sanctions with regards to China, reading comprehension. Commodities such as oil and gas, military hardware, etc. So how much has Russia sanctioned China as compared to the west? I guess its the same according to your logic.

All due to their own economic necessity, reading comprehension. What makes you think they won't fold with secondary sanctions in the case of a Taiwan situation?

Sleepyjam · Jul 5, 2022

Bob Smith said:
All due to their own economic necessity, reading comprehension. What makes you think they won't fold with secondary sanctions in the case of a Taiwan situation?

Sanctions are political some countries even go through with them when it destroys them economically lol.
Sure just like they folded in Ukraine.

pmc · Jul 5, 2022

Philister said:
Can’t wait for Russia to withdraw, joint development with Russians never work out, the same case applies to heavy helicopter project, at this point, they are useless deadweight in almost every single aspect, don’t lecture me about the experience thing, reality is: they’ve never build one successful airliner through decades of effort, don’t blame the west for sanctions ,they are just noob.

The word successfull you have to put in context. they built airlines through out the coldwar that there supply chains can make it at reasonable cost just like choppers.. they are not going to built $370m A350 that need thousands to breakeven. There are reliable in supply chain as 65% of Airbus titanium is Russian.

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if you take ARJ-21 and C919. Russians will not even join these kind of projects.
now they have two current project SSJ-R and MS-21 with 4600km and 6000km range. these are the base version. with more power full engines, lengthen airframe there capacity and ranges will increase over time. They will have cockpit unification.
this will allow airlines to switch between the planes over routes. They also restarted less advanced product Tu-214 in mean time to have another supply chain at different factory. they have chosen path of complete de-coupling. as Planes can be de-certified anytime.

weig2000 · Jul 5, 2022

The Airbus deals have been blown way out of proportion by the Chinese blogosphere and social media. These deals are simply follow-up to the letter of intent agreement that China and France signed during Xi's visit to Europe back in 2019. Apparently during the last three years, it's been difficult for China to place such a large order with the rampant COVID. Boeing's 737 MAX trouble is not helping either.

HumanHDMI · Jul 5, 2022

The issue is that Russia started the conflict in the first place. It's pretty clear that the central committee didn't think the ukraine issue was serious enough security problem to warrant an invasion and the chaos stemming from the ukraine conflict threw a massive wrench into the plan of relying on exports to pull china to the 5.5% gdp target this year.

Aldo aircraft purchase orders aren't done in a few months or weeks, it's a years long process probably more likely in line with trying to get the EU off the americans and into a more neutral third party spot

Philister · Jul 5, 2022

pmc said:
The word successfull you have to put in context. they built airlines through out the coldwar that there supply chains can make it at reasonable cost just like choppers.. they are not going to built $370m A350 that need thousands to breakeven. There are reliable in supply chain as 65% of Airbus titanium is Russian.

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if you take ARJ-21 and C919. Russians will not even join these kind of projects.
now they have two current project SSJ-R and MS-21 with 4600km and 6000km range. these are the base version. with more power full engines, lengthen airframe there capacity and ranges will increase over time. They will have cockpit unification.
this will allow airlines to switch between the planes over routes. They also restarted less advanced product Tu-214 in mean time to have another supply chain at different factory. they have chosen path of complete de-coupling. as Planes can be de-certified anytime.

SSJ-R and MS-21 are undoubtedly better design, but not that much better, the range of C-919 is more than what current published and after pathfinder like ARJ-21, conservative design is a necessity. By the way, their aggressive design comes with horrible reliability ( by the way, critical subsystems like PW-1000G are imported )
CR-929 is completely different case, without domestic market ,international airliner has to be able to compete with international rivals, Russians aren’t helpful in both tech and politics, their “advanced design ” is the least thing I want to see on CR-929

pmc · Jul 5, 2022

Philister said:
SSJ-R and MS-21 are undoubtedly better design, but not that much better, the range of C-919 is more than what current published and after pathfinder like ARJ-21, conservative design is a necessity. By the way, their aggressive design comes with horrible reliability ( by the way, critical subsystems like PW-1000G are imported )
CR-929 is completely different case, without domestic market ,international airliner has to be able to compete with international rivals, Russians aren’t helpful in both tech and politics, their “advanced design ” is the least thing I want to see on CR-929

Russian managed to create route network for SSJ in 20 to 30 airports. It can deal with extreme heat of Middleast and extreme cold near Arctic. fundamental engineering design is solid thats why SSJ-R is created. It has that wide cabin for long range flights. I think Thai airforce and Kazakh government also using it as business jet. this big achievement considering the initial investment.
PW1000G is gone. they have in few aircrafts for tests. The plane will not enter with two different engines.
Russians first has to master mass production of composite wing on MS21 before this technology can be reliably applied to widebody. in mean time they are re-creating IL96M that will test new systems and engines for wide body. Once everything are production, tested and certified than some future date they can contribute to a composite wing, new engine, subsystems to a wide body aircraft. and that wide body has to meet Russian requirements. Just the Russian government use Tu-214 can stay in air 11 to 13 hours. so i expect they will want wide body next generation stay in air 20 to 24hours on twin engine. just by looking at Europe airspace that is blocked they will need long range to reach Latin America. the point i am making is these are deep engineering skills. it simply not possible that two different organization work on same project. they can supply some parts but running a project together is a tall order.

COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

Philister

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Sleepyjam

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weig2000

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Philister

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