China ICBM/SLBM, nuclear arms thread

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
It depends on what China wants to do with them.

American analysts... whether they be DOD alarmists or FAS low-key underestimating the arsenal... seem to think China purely desires low-yield warheads so as to have a way to proportionately respond to an American tactical nuclear strike.

If that is the case, it might make sense to have a variety of warheads or one with dialable yield. The lowest yield an American tactical nuclear warhead can be set to is as low as 300 tons, while the highest is 170 kilotons.

The current warhead yield on most Chinese warheads is 500 kilotons or so, which is very high for responding to a low yield nuclear strike. To give an idea of how small the yield of an American warhead can be, 300 ton airburst over Terminal 1 of Beijing Capital International Airport would not even shatter the glass of any building of Terminal 3.

If that kind of tiny yield is being delivered against a military target, or even a fully evacuated civilian target, it would not warrant completely leveling an American city or entire air base. So even very, very low yield warheads would be warranted for China.

If China actually desires to have some tactical nuclear capability... I have no idea why that would be needed, both CPC ideology and the raw strength of China's conventional forces favor nukes as a retaliatory weapon only... what yield would be best would depend on what role the PLA envisions for tactical nukes. But there is no indication China needs tactical nukes for military purposes, instead the only justification being to retaliate if any adversary uses low yield nukes on China first.

EDIT- To clarify, when I say "CPC ideology" I'm talking about the founding tenets that drove China's decision to build nukes and then maintain a minimum deterrent. It is possible this has begun to adjust given Xi's mission to build the PLA into a world-class military. If it has, I of course welcome corrections and information.
There is a deterrence value when "all I have is 12 gauge". If my strike warrants a return strike of equal magnitude or no return strike, the gamble may be worth it. If any nuclear based strike results in a guaranteed 500kT return strike regardless of what I sent (because nuclear is nuclear), it's only potentially worth it if I gamble the whole farm
 

Andy1974

Senior Member
Registered Member
It depends on what China wants to do with them.

American analysts... whether they be DOD alarmists or FAS low-key underestimating the arsenal... seem to think China purely desires low-yield warheads so as to have a way to proportionately respond to an American tactical nuclear strike.

If that is the case, it might make sense to have a variety of warheads or one with dialable yield. The lowest yield an American tactical nuclear warhead can be set to is as low as 300 tons, while the highest is 170 kilotons.

The current warhead yield on most Chinese warheads is 500 kilotons or so, which is very high for responding to a low yield nuclear strike. To give an idea of how small the yield of an American warhead can be, 300 ton airburst over Terminal 1 of Beijing Capital International Airport would not even shatter the glass of any building of Terminal 3.

If that kind of tiny yield is being delivered against a military target, or even a fully evacuated civilian target, it would not warrant completely leveling an American city or entire air base. So even very, very low yield warheads would be warranted for China.

If China actually desires to have some tactical nuclear capability... I have no idea why that would be needed, both CPC ideology and the raw strength of China's conventional forces favor nukes as a retaliatory weapon only... what yield would be best would depend on what role the PLA envisions for tactical nukes. But there is no indication China needs tactical nukes for military purposes, instead the only justification being to retaliate if any adversary uses low yield nukes on China first.

EDIT- To clarify, when I say "CPC ideology" I'm talking about the founding tenets that drove China's decision to build nukes and then maintain a minimum deterrent. It is possible this has begun to adjust given Xi's mission to build the PLA into a world-class military. If it has, I of course welcome corrections and information.
If the US actually launches their orbital missiles for intercepting ICBMs during boost phase then you may need tactical nuke interceptors.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
It depends on what China wants to do with them.

American analysts... whether they be DOD alarmists or FAS low-key underestimating the arsenal... seem to think China purely desires low-yield warheads so as to have a way to proportionately respond to an American tactical nuclear strike.

If that is the case, it might make sense to have a variety of warheads or one with dialable yield. The lowest yield an American tactical nuclear warhead can be set to is as low as 300 tons, while the highest is 170 kilotons.

The current warhead yield on most Chinese warheads is 500 kilotons or so, which is very high for responding to a low yield nuclear strike. To give an idea of how small the yield of an American warhead can be, 300 ton airburst over Terminal 1 of Beijing Capital International Airport would not even shatter the glass of any building of Terminal 3.

If that kind of tiny yield is being delivered against a military target, or even a fully evacuated civilian target, it would not warrant completely leveling an American city or entire air base. So even very, very low yield warheads would be warranted for China.

If China actually desires to have some tactical nuclear capability... I have no idea why that would be needed, both CPC ideology and the raw strength of China's conventional forces favor nukes as a retaliatory weapon only... what yield would be best would depend on what role the PLA envisions for tactical nukes. But there is no indication China needs tactical nukes for military purposes, instead the only justification being to retaliate if any adversary uses low yield nukes on China first.

EDIT- To clarify, when I say "CPC ideology" I'm talking about the founding tenets that drove China's decision to build nukes and then maintain a minimum deterrent. It is possible this has begun to adjust given Xi's mission to build the PLA into a world-class military. If it has, I of course welcome corrections and information.
Why use a tactical nuke when a dozen high end missiles can do the same damage? And China unlike most countries can consistently produce enough high end weapons to keep up the damage.

China fields mostly strategic nukes or even very large strategic nukes (25+mt) because the nukes exist to prevent the other side from using nukes for a tactical advantage. If even a 300t nuke is used anywhere in or near the Chinese homeland, China would likely pop a 5mt over Pearl. And there's no way US would really be able to respond much to it either with the "escalate to deescalate" doctrine going in effect. If a 300t nuke is used on a troop concentration in the Pacific, there might a 500kt nuke over Diego Garcia for example.

Maybe in 1990, China would have used tactical nukes in a war to prevent US from overrunning the smaller PLA. But today, that's not really a concern. Putting a lot of small nukes on their delivery vehicles would only increase the risk of an escalation loop, while providing no tactical benefits.
 

SunlitZelkova

New Member
Registered Member
There is a deterrence value when "all I have is 12 gauge". If my strike warrants a return strike of equal magnitude or no return strike, the gamble may be worth it. If any nuclear based strike results in a guaranteed 500kT return strike regardless of what I sent (because nuclear is nuclear), it's only potentially worth it if I gamble the whole farm

Is the PLA, or CPC for that matter, inclined to gamble?

Conversely, it could be argued that only having strategic nukes invites a tactical strike. Because the other side may believe that "China knows" that using their high yield weapons to respond to a small tactical strike would then involve US retaliation with their own high yield nukes, making it safe for the US to use smaller nuclear weapons- because China would not risk further escalation.

Either scenario is possible, but there is no harm in preparing for all eventualities. This is why although China's policy on paper is to use nukes only in retaliation for nuclear strikes, PLARF (at the time Second Artillery Corps) and other PLA materials contradict this by stating that nuclear use would be warranted if a conventional strike matching the effects of a nuclear strike was carried out by an adversary (this was in the 2000s, so the main scenario being addressed was if the Three Gorges Dam was somehow destroyed). On a more obvious note, if the world somehow united to invade China and was on the verge of conquering it and splitting it up, the PLA would obviously use nukes even if the enemy had not used any at all.

Over in Europe, Russian and American tactical nukes are thought of as being of great value to deterrence. The "gambling" doctrine is basically what France does- and it involves nuking one enemy target upon provocation warranting it (known as ultime avertissement; final warning), and then if the enemy retaliates, launching a full scale strike. Their lowest yield weapon is 100 kilotons- ten times that of Little Boy, making it strategic (North Korea's hydrogen bomb had a 108 kiloton yield and was intended for its ICBM).

IMO, it would be extremely disadvantageous for China to lock itself into that kind of unflexible strategy. France's own strategy has already come under attack from some questioning if it could truly replace American nuclear deterrence in NATO, because its unflexibility makes it extremely uncredible- France isn't going to let itself get glassed just because Riga, Tallinn, and Vilnius have fallen. Whereas the US (in theory) could credibly nuke a Russian air base with a low yield nuke, let a NATO air base get nuked with a low yield nuke, and then make a ceasefire offer with room to negotiate using the threat of further low yield strikes.

In contrast, France would have no such leeway because their threat (that they will launch a full scale strike if, say, Russia was to retaliate to a French strike with a single low yield nuke) is not credible. The US threat possesses credibility, because there is enormous room for continous low yield strikes in Europe- they aren't saying "we hit you once, and if you hit us again we are going to end the both of us," they can continue the conflict and the threat of them continuing the conflict is credible, because they won't bring any harm on themselves (just Europe). Russia likewise can do so, because it is big enough to take quite a few tactical nukes and remain in one piece. France doesn't even envision a continuous tactical exchange, they expect the adversary to believe that they will allow all of France to be destroyed if the enemy does not give in.

To clarify, especially because "the best response to an American tactical nuke is a megaton air burst over Hawaii" is a notion so popular in this thread: I am not saying that China has to use low yield nukes in response. If they want to respond with a high yield detonation, they can.

I think that PLA thinking is more advanced than that of the dinosaurs that are European militaries, and they would at least want to give themselves options.

If the US actually launches their orbital missiles for intercepting ICBMs during boost phase then you may need tactical nuke interceptors.

I could see rational for putting tactical nukes on the HQ-19 or any other high-end ABM system, similar to how Soviet ABMs had them. That would of course only be necessary if the engineers or PLA were unconfident in the system's accuracy, which they do not seem to be.

The space-based interceptors being proposed by the US involve having the satellite itself hit the ICBM, not launching a missile at it.

If the Golden Dome interceptor satellites are in LEO, wouldn't it be relatively straightforward to destroy them with lasers and ground based ASATs before launching your ICBMs, at least if the interceptors were aimed at boost phase?

It would be, but keep in mind such a constellation would have something on the order of 741,000 satellites (I wrote about this over in the US military thread).


Realistically the space-based interceptor system just isn't going to exist at all. The US can't afford it.

Why use a tactical nuke when a dozen high end missiles can do the same damage? And China unlike most countries can consistently produce enough high end weapons to keep up the damage.

Would China (whether that be the CPC or public, or PLA personnel) accept responding to a 300 ton nuclear strike with maybe, 36-72 DF-26s launched at a single target?

Maybe they could, and the CMC would make the decision not to use nukes. But maybe they wouldn't. The idea is not to create an unflexible policy, but to create options to choose from in a contingency.

Maybe in 1990, China would have used tactical nukes in a war to prevent US from overrunning the smaller PLA. But today, that's not really a concern. Putting a lot of small nukes on their delivery vehicles would only increase the risk of an escalation loop, while providing no tactical benefits.

I am not suggesting that China would replace its high yield warheads with low yield ones, let alone make low yield ones that bulk of the force.

On the contrary, the Americans reports (and my own personal opinion) state that China would only produce a very small number of low yield warheads to give them the option for a proportionate retaliation.

Of course, the option remains to retaliate using a larger weapon too.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Is the PLA, or CPC for that matter, inclined to gamble?

Conversely, it could be argued that only having strategic nukes invites a tactical strike. Because the other side may believe that "China knows" that using their high yield weapons to respond to a small tactical strike would then involve US retaliation with their own high yield nukes, making it safe for the US to use smaller nuclear weapons- because China would not risk further escalation.

Either scenario is possible, but there is no harm in preparing for all eventualities. This is why although China's policy on paper is to use nukes only in retaliation for nuclear strikes, PLARF (at the time Second Artillery Corps) and other PLA materials contradict this by stating that nuclear use would be warranted if a conventional strike matching the effects of a nuclear strike was carried out by an adversary (this was in the 2000s, so the main scenario being addressed was if the Three Gorges Dam was somehow destroyed). On a more obvious note, if the world somehow united to invade China and was on the verge of conquering it and splitting it up, the PLA would obviously use nukes even if the enemy had not used any at all.

Over in Europe, Russian and American tactical nukes are thought of as being of great value to deterrence. The "gambling" doctrine is basically what France does- and it involves nuking one enemy target upon provocation warranting it (known as ultime avertissement; final warning), and then if the enemy retaliates, launching a full scale strike. Their lowest yield weapon is 100 kilotons- ten times that of Little Boy, making it strategic (North Korea's hydrogen bomb had a 108 kiloton yield and was intended for its ICBM).

IMO, it would be extremely disadvantageous for China to lock itself into that kind of unflexible strategy. France's own strategy has already come under attack from some questioning if it could truly replace American nuclear deterrence in NATO, because its unflexibility makes it extremely uncredible- France isn't going to let itself get glassed just because Riga, Tallinn, and Vilnius have fallen. Whereas the US (in theory) could credibly nuke a Russian air base with a low yield nuke, let a NATO air base get nuked with a low yield nuke, and then make a ceasefire offer with room to negotiate using the threat of further low yield strikes.

In contrast, France would have no such leeway because their threat (that they will launch a full scale strike if, say, Russia was to retaliate to a French strike with a single low yield nuke) is not credible. The US threat possesses credibility, because there is enormous room for continous low yield strikes in Europe- they aren't saying "we hit you once, and if you hit us again we are going to end the both of us," they can continue the conflict and the threat of them continuing the conflict is credible, because they won't bring any harm on themselves (just Europe). Russia likewise can do so, because it is big enough to take quite a few tactical nukes and remain in one piece. France doesn't even envision a continuous tactical exchange, they expect the adversary to believe that they will allow all of France to be destroyed if the enemy does not give in.

To clarify, especially because "the best response to an American tactical nuke is a megaton air burst over Hawaii" is a notion so popular in this thread: I am not saying that China has to use low yield nukes in response. If they want to respond with a high yield detonation, they can.

I think that PLA thinking is more advanced than that of the dinosaurs that are European militaries, and they would at least want to give themselves options.
Let me ask you this, after PLA sinks two American carrier battle groups, Americans no longer has any concentrated forces in the West Pacific. Americana starts to use tactical nukes on PLA ports and naval fleets, what American targets should the PLA hit with tactical nukes?
 

Heresy

New Member
Registered Member
Let me ask you this, after PLA sinks two American carrier battle groups, Americans no longer has any concentrated forces in the West Pacific. Americana starts to use tactical nukes on PLA ports and naval fleets, what American targets should the PLA hit with tactical nukes?
Guam? Diego Garcia?
 

SunlitZelkova

New Member
Registered Member
Let me ask you this, after PLA sinks two American carrier battle groups, Americans no longer has any concentrated forces in the West Pacific. Americana starts to use tactical nukes on PLA ports and naval fleets, what American targets should the PLA hit with tactical nukes?

It depends on how the CMC/CPC decides to perceive the strike.

If they mainly perceive it as a nuclear strike on military forces, I would find hitting US naval facilities in Japan to make sense: namely USFA Sasebo and USFA Yokosuka.

Let's say the US specifically targets Yulin and Qingdao, Shandong and Liaoning's respective homeports, in what they view as a proportional response to the sinking of the two CSGs (even if say, Fujian also ends up being based in Yulin).

USFA Sasebo and USFA Yokosuka would make sense due to them being the primary regional US naval facilities. Their validity as retaliatory targets could be stretched further if USN amphibious assault ships are considered to be aircraft carriers, making Sasebo and Yokosuka both (formerly) home to one American carrier.

If the US is targeting more facilities, this could be expanded to other regional facilities. Okinawa is home to a multiple docks capable of handling LHAs. JMSDF bases could be included as well, assuming the JMSDF is fighting on the side of the US and American ships have begun using JMSDF facilities.

If they mainly perceive it as a nuclear strike on the Chinese mainland, it would be difficult to respond proportionately.

The best option, in my opinion, would be to strike US territory other than CONUS. Only one regional target is a good match; Naval Base Guam. If the DF-27 has the range to reach Hawaii, Pearl Harbor could be targeted as well. Diego Garcia may not be a viable target because it would involve firing in the direction of India. It is also British territory, making it a poor choice for retaliation specifically against US territory.

These two targeting options could be combined to fulfill both perceptions of the strike: retaliation for nuclear strikes on PLA forces and retaliation for nuclear strikes on the mainland.

I do not think the US would target naval formations out at sea, because all of their weapons apart from gravity bombs are designed for use against fixed targets, and realistically an F-35 with a B61 is not going to make it in range of a PLAN CSG or SAG. In my scenario I'm assuming they used Trident IIs with the low-yield W76-2 warhead.

I would like to highlight that this is my own opinion of one possibility. Apart from doctrine, individual CMC officials and Xi himself may have a different views about how to best respond and how to deter further escalation. As the actual military (and in the case of Xi, political) leaders of China, it is their prerogotative about how to respond.

I highlighted specific scenarios in previous posts not to suggest they are the one strategy that China "must" use to prevent armageddon and win the war, but rather to highlight how the possibilities of US reaction could vary and thus to meet those possibilities and achieve the best outcome, as well as to better fulfill the modern CMC/CPC's requirement for what retaliation might look like, it makes sense for China to have a variety of options at hand.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Would China (whether that be the CPC or public, or PLA personnel) accept responding to a 300 ton nuclear strike with maybe, 36-72 DF-26s launched at a single target?
The point is that China can inflict mass tactical nuke level damage without actually using tactical nukes.

If small tactical nukes are 100x as destructive as equivalent normal warhead, China has the production and tech overmatch to create conventional weapons in numbers and quality that would roughly match the tactical nuke in damage. Especially because 50 high quality missiles can be aimed at individual targets.

So by going to tactical nukes, China is only nerfing herself, sure China also retains the same tech/industry advantage when it comes to nukes, but if she bombs someone with 50x more tactical nukes than the other side does, the other side would probably resort to strategics due to sheer destruction scale.

I mean China likely has many (100s?) tactical nukes as well, for whatever contingency could require one, but they're never going to publicly brag they will be used for combat. And they have little reason to actually attach those tactical warheads to delivery vehicles because of the above reason. It creates an escalation that plays against China's strength.

A 7 foot tall MMA heavyweight has to fight a 5'2" woman. They both have pistols and they both get offered the chance to fight barehanded or with a knife.

If the woman draws her knife, the man will shoot her hand with his pistol to disarm her.

If she draws her gun, both shoot eachother in the head and both die.

Why should the MMA fighter ever respond to her drawing her knife by stupidly also drawing his own knife? It's giving her a chance to win because the knife negates most of his physical advantages. In this scenario, it only makes sense for the MMA fighter to insist on fighting barehanded, in fact, he should taunt and loudly proclaim that the fight should be "no first use".

And if US wants to draw nukes anyways even after China tries its best to con them into pure conventional (tactical or otherwise), that's what all the hq-19 et al are for. Basically China will in desparation try to get US to stop by deescalating through escalating, and if it doesn't work, it will go into the shootout and pray/cope enough of the US' return strike can be destroyed.
 

Moonscape

Junior Member
Registered Member
Let me ask you this, after PLA sinks two American carrier battle groups, Americans no longer has any concentrated forces in the West Pacific. Americana starts to use tactical nukes on PLA ports and naval fleets, what American targets should the PLA hit with tactical nukes?

Washington, DC.

This should apply to any usage of any American nuke. DC gets nuked in response, no exceptions. Send a second one to Mar-a-Lago too.
 
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