China Flanker thread

[tphuang]

Erbis is PESA, I honestly think the numbers are pure marketting BS. The power output is not much greater than that of Bars and Bars initially had a detection range of 135 km vs 3m^2 targets, now it's probably higher.

As for su-33, I suspect China will get a few, because Varyag will probably be ready a few years before the domestic planes.

 

[challenge]

Erbis is PESA, I honestly think the numbers are pure marketting BS. The power output is not much greater than that of Bars and Bars initially had a detection range of 135 km vs 3m^2 targets, now it's probably higher.

As for su-33, I suspect China will get a few, because Varyag will probably be ready a few years before the domestic planes.

according to 1995 back issue of Miltech,PESA do not enjoy quantum leap over conventional slotted antenna,,this is main reason why USAF decided not to adapt PESA (except the B-1 bomber) .

 

[tphuang]

according to 1995 back issue of Miltech,PESA do not enjoy quantum leap over conventional slotted antenna,,this is main reason why USAF decided not to adapt PESA (except the B-1 bomber) .

I think that is China's conclusion too. It's pretty much going to skip PESA and straight to AESA for J-10.

 

[Chengdu J-10]

I think that is China's conclusion too. It's pretty much going to skip PESA and straight to AESA for J-10.

I agree. China tends to speed up modernisation through jumping generations. Eg: telecommunications. They sort of skipped the land base telephone and jumped right into celluar (mobile) phones. So it wouldn't suprise me if China jumped from PESA and straight to AESA for J-10. Very likely

 

[crobato]

Well the thing is, PESA doesn't cost that much more over MSA. It is just that the West has built a large installed base with MSA, and there was no point in moving that to PESA.

With the Soviet Union, they prefer to go cheap, since MSA requires a delicate and precision mechanical servos, which is not something they can easily mass manufacture. So they went to the Twist Cassegrain, which combines the classic Cassegrain design (same principle as a reflector telescope) but uses a flat focal plane design on the end which uses polarizers to "twist" emissions towards different directions for a scanning motion. Thus the Twist Cassegrain combines the characteristics of Cassegrain with that of a focal plane array. Mainly for the latter, if you are receiving signals against a flat array it will be subjected to less distortion as opposed to focusing it to a recieving point. The antenna used in the Su-27, J-11s and even the MKKs is of this principle.

Since they bypassed the MSA stage, the Russians is just skipping from Twist Cassegrain to PESA. At least with NIIP Tikhomirov. With NIIR Phazotron, they decided to go with MSA, seeing it cost effective with MiG-29 and MiG-21/23 upgrades. and with that launched the Zhuk line.

For China, due to the extent they were aping the West, they moved from parabolic like in the early J-7 radars, to Cassegrain, like the Type 204/208 used in the J-8II, then to MSA. China actually had the opportunity to skip MSA entirely since they don't have the legacy hardware like the West does. And you can see China has managed to develop PESA quite fast, given the KJ-2000/200, various ground AEW radars and fire control radars for the HQ-9 and KS-1A. Yet they stuck MSA on their fighters as it seemed like a safe and "traditional" choice to do.

 

[tphuang]

this is an interesting summary of ARH missile in service with flankers.

嘿嘿，除了R77就没有别的主动弹么？貌似后期歼11A已经整合国产主动弹了。
100架苏30MKK与弟3批的28架苏27UBK改是具备发射R77能力的。 JLeQ\C
只有早期的38架苏27SK与12架老UBK以及早期组装的歼11，才是比较差的，数量并不算多。
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝ Yf; l a
中国的270来架苏27系列中： qg3D{Zu[
2000年前到货的：
老苏27SK：38架
老苏27UBK：12架
2000年后到货的： N|qNWoiEw
新苏27UBK改：28架
苏30MKK：100架
国产歼11约100来架
＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝＝
从上面可以看出： ^nHe[1q=0
原装进口的170来架中，新型的具备发射R77能力的苏30MKK与新苏27UBK改型占了绝大部分。2000年以前到货的老苏27SK与老苏27UBK仅有50架。

截至目前国产歼11大约装备了100来架中，也可以分为几个阶段：早期纯组装型、部分国产化歼11A型以及后期的歼11A型。早期组装的歼11无A与苏 27SK同标准。而歼11A在不同批次也有不同改进，到后期已经具备发射国产主动中距弹能力，空战能力至少能达到苏30MKK以上水平。

中国这270来架苏27系列中：苏30MKK、新苏27UBK加上后期型歼11A占了大多数。
[/quote]
This has been discussed in the past in CDF, but I thought the poster on this made some interesting points.

Basically, out of the 170 imported flankers, the 100 su-30 + 28 ubk in the last bunch all have capability of firing r-77. The first 50 ubk/sk did not.
And then out of the 100 domestically produced flankers, the original ones (J-11) were exactly at su-27sk, then J-11A continuously improved, and later ones have the capability of firing PL-12.

 

[Chengdu J-10]

this is an interesting summary of ARH missile in service with flankers.

This has been discussed in the past in CDF, but I thought the poster on this made some interesting points.

Basically, out of the 170 imported flankers, the 100 su-30 + 28 ubk in the last bunch all have capability of firing r-77. The first 50 ubk/sk did not.
And then out of the 100 domestically produced flankers, the original ones (J-11) were exactly at su-27sk, then J-11A continuously improved, and later ones have the capability of firing PL-12.

Isnt their 176 imported flankers? 34 Su27SK & 42 Su27UBK & 76 Su30MKK & 24 Su30MKK2

 

[crobato]

this is an interesting summary of ARH missile in service with flankers.

This has been discussed in the past in CDF, but I thought the poster on this made some interesting points.

Basically, out of the 170 imported flankers, the 100 su-30 + 28 ubk in the last bunch all have capability of firing r-77. The first 50 ubk/sk did not.
And then out of the 100 domestically produced flankers, the original ones (J-11) were exactly at su-27sk, then J-11A continuously improved, and later ones have the capability of firing PL-12.

China only gotten 48 SK/UBK in the first two batches. The impression that it was fifty came because the first two J-11s were assigned to the 2nd Division with the same unit that had the second batch of planes, numbers 27 to 48. The J-11s were numbered 49 and 50.

In addition to that China imported at least 100 kits meant to upgrade the Su-27SK radar to fire R-77. The kit is not the full SKM upgrade package that includes PGM and AshM support, along with changing the cockpit and many of the avionics. These 100 kits were attached to the J-11s and importation started in 2001. By 2004, "tens" of the planes had been modified.

105 kits were imported to make the J-11.

J-11A should be the non kit based J-11 using an all Chinese manufactured airframe but still using Russian radar, avionics and stuff. It should be exactly like the Su-27SK.

It is not clear if the R-77 mod kits include the original SKs and UBKs, as well as J-11As, since the actual numbers had never been declared. But it is possible.

My breakdown goes like this

Su-27SK - 36 in two batches

Su-27UBK - first batch 6 planes, second batch 6 planes, third batch 28 planes. Total is 40.

Su-30MKK - 76 planes
Su-30MK2 - 24 planes

J-11 - 105 planes

J-11A - Unknown number, my estimate around 20-30, with 17 to be finished this year.

J-11B - Four to five prototypes my estimate. Google Earth has like 4 to 5 J-11s in the CFTC base.

Other than black nosed J-11Bs, I don't think any plane first PL-12.

 

[BLUEJACKET]

In case anyone missed it:

Russian Kommersant online daily newspaper reported on 27 November 2006 that two Russian engine manufacturers, Salut Moscow Engineering Production Enterprise and Rybinsk Saturn, were competing to supply the engines to upgrade China’s Su-27 Flanker fighter aircraft. This was also the first report to have revealed the PLAAF’s intension to upgrade its Su-27 fleet.
According to the report, Salut offered its AL-31F-M1 turbofan engine, which is an improved variant of the AL-31F on the original Su-27. The AL-31F-M1 model features increased thrust (from 122.58kN to about 133kN with afterburning) and capacity. The engine was intended to be used to upgrade the existing Su-27/30 series fighter aircraft. The Al-31F-M1 development was completed in 2002. Upon approval of this upgrade package by Sukhoi, the engine is now being prompted to existing and future customers of the Su-27/30 series fighter.
Saturn proposed its latest 117S engine developed from the AL-31FP, which is being used to power the Indian Air Force’s Su-30MKI fighter. Though the 117S engine is more technologically advanced compared to AL-31F-M1, it’s development has yet been completed and the engine is still undergoing tests.
The PLAAF received its first and second batch of Su-27 fighters from Russia in 1992 and 1996 respectively. After a decade of service, these aircraft apparently began to show their age. Kommersant report suggested that the PLAAF planned to purchase 52 engines worth US$180 million to upgrade 26 Su-27 fighters (20 Su-27SKs and 6 Su-27UBKs) in 2007 to 2008. This may followed by additional engines to upgrade 22 Su-27 fighters (16 Su-27SKs and 6 Su-27UBKs) at later stage. Both companies believe that the PLAAF will eventually have to upgrade all of its 273 Sukhoi fighters (Su-27, Su-30, and J-11) with the new engine, extending the overall contract budget to US$2 billion.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

What do you make of this? I wonder if their existing J-11/Su-30s could be

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

without importing/producing large numbers of Su-33s?

 

[crobato]

Might be too much trouble trying to modify and strengthen the existing airframes, that it may be better to start with a clean slate.