China Flanker thread

[Chengdu J-10]

Actually that's probably the worst way to go. Incremental upgrades means shorter development-to-deployment time. If you wait for the "best", you'll be waiting a long time when you could've had 80% of the capability now and get the rest later when it's ready. Besides, the "best" is no longer the best in a few short years, so mass producing one static design in huge numbers just means you'll have lots of outdated designs in a few more years. Better is the enemy of good enough. You want capability deployed now, even if it is not up to par with outside standards. Upgrading isn't that bad if you have the mindset of making your designs upgrade-friendly. I.e. modularity and overdesgining and giving more space/payload than needed, in anticipation of future expansion.

What i was trying to refer to was that... ok example:
The PLAAF are still producing the J-7 (Correct if wrong) and at the same time upgrading its existing fleet. Instead of upgrading and producing these older design aircraft why dont they just build some advance domestic upgraded flankers (there probably doing this already) but why dont they just wait a bit. Just a bit. For the flankers to be ready for mass production. Also i wasn't saying dont produce aircraft that isn't advance i was saying dont rush in to build too many of them. In some suggestion what do you think if the PLAAF had some Su-34 in their inventory?Wouldn't be bad but (i know china wants to be more self reliant and build domestic aircraft)

 

[mehdi]

lol I was thinking about the same thing, China has now mastered all the key requirements to mass produce the J-11. We will now be able to judge how many will be built. I have only one querry it's about the future of the JH-7A, with the introduction of the J-11B will China continue the production of this plane?

 

[Chengdu J-10]

lol I was thinking about the same thing, China has now mastered all the key requirements to mass produce the J-11. We will now be able to judge how many will be built. I have only one querry it's about the future of the JH-7A, with the introduction of the J-11B will China continue the production of this plane?

I personally am quite disappointed with JH-7/A they have just recently introduce this aircraft (JH-7A) in 2004 if im correct. Now we're in the 21st century the F-111 is being retired soon from the Australian airforce. The payload on the F-111 is 11 ton and the JH-7A after redesign is still lagging behind the F-111 with 6.5 tons. The F-111 has been around for nearly 50 years while the JH-7A has been for what several years. The JH-7A in appearance is an old design (i know appearance isn't everything but still it effects aerodynamics). Now moving back to J-11B i think that the PLAAF might have put more emphasis on multirole instead of air superioty into the J-11B this would partially fufill the JH-7. Though the J-11B might be more capabible it is still expensive for dangerous ground attack missions. So the JH-7 would be a cost effective solution. I think that the JH-7 will undergo another major redesign before any are further produced

 

[mehdi]

:coffee: Seems logical to me, I was thinking that China would surely produce a new indigenous radar that will be on par or surpass the one on the JH-7A and incorporate it in the J-11B. This may be not too far away for us to see truly multi-roles J-11B.:china:

 

[crobato]

Do note that the MKKs are from the 3rd Division. Note the badges on their jackets. Though its not a clear closeup here, other pictures of this badge have a J-10 silhouette in the center.

I quite agree with the observations of Chengdu and Red. Self explanatory.

I think China is already tailing off J-11A production. I think this is probably the fewest and short lived J-11 variant. I think China has not stopped making components for the J-11s, like airframes. I do think these components are being stored and awaiting J-11B production.

It seems strange while China still produces JH-7A, J-7G and J-8F while she stops production of J-11/J-11A and purchases of Su-30MKK. Whats interesting is that the JH-7A, J-7G and J-8F are relatively old airframe designs but are now equipped with more modern avionics, while the J-11 and Su-30MKK are more advanced airframes but the avionics seem to be lagging.

 

[mehdi]

Crobato what are the latest news about the Su-30MKK? Have China ordered more since the last orders of the Su-30MK2 !!!
Thanks

 

[Chengdu J-10]

Crobato what are the latest news about the Su-30MKK? Have China ordered more since the last orders of the Su-30MK2 !!!
Thanks

I dont think China will place any further orders on Su-30 from Russia due to them wanting to be more self reliant and domestic. Buying or acquiring Russian aircraft only permits russian munitions and thus must purchase them from russia. This is an issue which china wants to solve on their J-11s (J-11B). So buying su-30 prohibits chinese munitions being used on the aircraft. Also the J-10 is quite capable now and is domesticly made and doesn't require on foreign munitions meaning they can have a huge batch of munitions instead of waiting for russia's orders to come thru. Except the engines on the J-10 which still uses AL-31FN hopefully the WS-10 will be successful and ready soon

 

[tphuang]

I personally am quite disappointed with JH-7/A they have just recently introduce this aircraft (JH-7A) in 2004 if im correct. Now we're in the 21st century the F-111 is being retired soon from the Australian airforce. The payload on the F-111 is 11 ton and the JH-7A after redesign is still lagging behind the F-111 with 6.5 tons. The F-111 has been around for nearly 50 years while the JH-7A has been for what several years. The JH-7A in appearance is an old design (i know appearance isn't everything but still it effects aerodynamics). Now moving back to J-11B i think that the PLAAF might have put more emphasis on multirole instead of air superioty into the J-11B this would partially fufill the JH-7. Though the J-11B might be more capabible it is still expensive for dangerous ground attack missions. So the JH-7 would be a cost effective solution. I think that the JH-7 will undergo another major redesign before any are further produced

JH-7 can actually carry a lot more than 6.5 tonnes if you do a calculation based on its maximum takeoff and such. But the thing is that at 6.5 tonnes of payload, it has an operating radius of 1650 km on internal fuel alone. That is pretty much enough for any kind of mission the plaaf has, unless they are trying to use it to do the task of strategic bomber. Considering all of the news report this year and all the pictures we've seen with JH-7A equipping new munitions, I'd say it's doing pretty well.

 

[crobato]

I do agree to what both Red and Chengdu here is saying. If you upgrade moderately, you will find a large investment or inventory that can be obsolete in a few years. But if you don't upgrade moderately, waiting for the latest and the bestest,which will surely take more time and money to develop, will also leave you with a vast inventory of obsolete stuff now that you cannot upgrade.

So in the end you have to pick the lesser of two evils. If your technological capability is moderate to modest, then you also have no choice. You have to upgrade based on the means within your technological envelope.

For the JH-7A it's not that bad of an aircraft, especially when it is packing the latest avionics and indigenous missiles like the YJ-83 and KD-88. I would certainly think it is useful.

I personally like to see China buy more Su-30 and wish it had not discontinued the purchases. Me being a big fan of the Flanker. But the writing is on the wall on this one, as Chengdu here explained it well. If Sukhoi wants to sell more Su-30 to China or hope to upgrade the current aircraft, it has to do accomodate Chinese weaponry.

Improving radar performance is one thing; since Russia wasn't willing to sell its latest and best before, China didn't get a good opinion about Russian radar, having the taste of not just being "degraded" but also being outperformed by local equivalents. I for one is likely to believe that the radar they fitted on the J-8F is better than that on the MKK or J-11. Maybe it's not just being degraded, but the latest Russian radars are too half baked (far from complete and lacking enough tests and verification) to be exported, or maybe China is not willing to pay the price or wait for them to be baked.

But most important is that the Russians should modifiy their radars so they could accomodate Chinese munitions. Perhaps their earlier radar designs make it difficult, but if you can design a radar and fire control system from the ground up with that in mind, the task can be a lot easier. I don't know if the IRBIS proposed to the Chinese is made with such hindsight, but perhaps it may well be.

 

[Chengdu J-10]

Some Su-34 would be nice for the PLAAF except for the fact that they would require to use Russian munitions which China doesn't like. If the Russian's were willing to sell some Su-34 so that Chinese munitions could be used on it, I dont see why China shouldn't at least get a couple of them for trial. Quick question it has always been bothering me. What is the difference between a double or single fin aircraft. US for eg. Single engine fighter single fin (F-16), double engine fighter double fin (F-15/18) while china had double engine fighter with single fin. I have never seen an chinese indigenious fighter (J-11 is license copy of Su-27 an is not indigenous) with double fin why is this? though i've seen a chinese double engine with single fin. And why are china's double engine aircraft always bunched together and not spaced out like the flankers?