China Flanker thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

maglomanic

Junior Member
Yes the designation "swing role" I was missing.

Maglomanic, I think the vid you're referring to is a EF promo vid labeled "nothing comes close". This is more for marketing reasons. The intention is just to show what EF is capable of doing, though I doubt it would do all that in the same mission. Especially one aircraft will not go on such a mission alone ...

This is from Eurofighter's website. Thats what they are marketing in the form of "swing role " capability.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


"Eurofighter Typhoon is as an affordable high-end swing-role weapon system whose design ensures that the aircraft is fully capable of combining different operational tasks in a single mission. Swing-role capability also offers considerable cost-of-ownership benefits to Governments and operational commanders".
 
Last edited:

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Crobato,
I am kinda confused here.From what i have heard and read 'swing role' (gripen,eurofighter,rafale ) is a recent development than multirole. Rafale being marketed even as 'omni role'. The term 'Swing role' being used to refer to a fighter jets capability to undertake multiple roles in the same mission (e.g precision strike and air supriority). There was a video out there for Eurofighter showing it's swing role capability. Eurofighter takes to the skies with a primary role of taking out some terrorist site but in the end , ends up going doing SAM supression and interception of an enemy aircraft (suggestively shown as Su variant :p ).

Maybe both of us are not on the same page and you were refering to something entirely different. Would be great to see your thoughts on it.

What you are describing would be in my definition, multirole.

:) Could be the J-11B just found this. :D Nice posts Crobato thanks :china:

I think that is J-11A, which in my definition is a J-11 that is not made with CKD airframe kits and using a China made airframe but still using Russian engines, radar, avionics, and flight controls. The majority of the J-11s are built with kits, of which China imported 105. Originally, China was only going to order only 80 out of the 200 they optioned in their license contract, but it does appear that there was some performance issues with the made in China built airframe, and so they continued the orders until the Chinese airframe was satisfactory.

The production of the J-11A did not begin when the kits stopped, but I believe there is some overlap and in a certain period, both J-11 and J-11A were being made concurrently. After the J-11 kits were stopped, only the J-11A continued production.

In my opinion, the J-11A is a transition model intended to validate the Chinese made airframe before adding home grown radars, engines, avionics and so on in the next step to make it the J-11B.

J-11B should have a black radome, probably made of carbon or graphite, with static strips, like you see with the J-10, FC-1 and J-8F/H. Using strips is a Western inspiration, if you note, Russian aircraft don't have the practice of putting static strips on their radomes. But if you look around, you will note F-16s have this, and so does the Lavi.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Yes the designation "swing role" I was missing.

Maglomanic, I think the vid you're referring to is a EF promo vid labeled "nothing comes close". This is more for marketing reasons. The intention is just to show what EF is capable of doing, though I doubt it would do all that in the same mission. Especially one aircraft will not go on such a mission alone ...

And crobato, I don't precisely know what the responsibility assignment in PLAAF is, but if there are fighter and bomber regiments as you indicated, doesn't that necessarily mean you can only use a designated regiment for one task ? I mean you talked about the target opportunity, but to effectivly use a PGM I think you have to be trained on it. Is that the case with a fighter regiment pilot, or will this determination even vanish ?

Will be interesting what the outcome of that radar contest is
Finally I believe having two dedicated versions will make each a bit more capable in it's assigned task, and in battle you can never know if this "bit more" may be required to win.
And since the PLAAF has, imo, a rather bigger number of planes it would make sense I think. However, I may not be used to the tactical and stratigic necessaties implemented under a certain doctrine.

It does not look to me that fighter regiments, J-10, J-8H/F included, are trained to handle laser and TV guided PGMs, with the main exception of those using Su-30s. Maybe later they may use JDAM type weapons, but using TV weapons require a kind of modification that may not be on these aircraft except for H-6H and JH-7As. This is a TV channel where the view of the TV camera onboard the weapon can be displayed in an MFD. Mind you, the Su-30MKKs, MK2s, the SKM upgrade proposed to China, and the Zhemchug proposed to the J-10 all have TV channels. Of all PGM types, TV weapons are still the most accurate although the most expensive to implement. Like laser weapons, they are at the mercy of the weather.

Laser weapons are the next step, but then if you are depending on the airplane to both target and launch the bombs, then you probably need a TV channel to display the view of the FLIR pod underneath the plane.

Now stuff like this now appears implementable with China's technology level, as the JH-7A and the last versions of the Q-5 have shown. But whether or not they have shown up on the J-10, J-8H/F and the J-11B remains to be seen because there may be reasons why they choose to not to currently fit these on the aircraft. To keep things cheap? To rush things into service by lowering the requirements to the basic ones?

When I look at other examples throughout the PLA, like the Type 22 FACs, you get the feel that the PLA in general is still after grasping specialization, rather than multirole generalization. I think this is still heavily reflected more in the PLAAF than the other services. I still think they are still strongly in the grasp of traditional role doctrines defined by fighter (interceptor, air superiority), attacker, and bomber, rather than looking into an aircraft that fits all three.

Crobato,
Any difference between a radome with static strips as opposed to one without em?

None really, the strips are meant for lightning protection.

Going back, I have the "feel" that in the light of what I said, tha I think there may be a second type of domesticated J-11 that is designed more for the precision ground attack role. The radar and fire control systems are going to be meant for the role rather than air superiority.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Kilo636

Banned Idiot
It does not look to me that fighter regiments, J-10, J-8H/F included, are trained to handle laser and TV guided PGMs, with the main exception of those using Su-30s. Maybe later they may use JDAM type weapons, but using TV weapons require a kind of modification that may not be on these aircraft except for H-6H and JH-7As. This is a TV channel where the view of the TV camera onboard the weapon can be displayed in an MFD. Mind you, the Su-30MKKs, MK2s, the SKM upgrade proposed to China, and the Zhemchug proposed to the J-10 all have TV channels. Of all PGM types, TV weapons are still the most accurate although the most expensive to implement. Like laser weapons, they are at the mercy of the weather.

Laser weapons are the next step, but then if you are depending on the airplane to both target and launch the bombs, then you probably need a TV channel to display the view of the FLIR pod underneath the plane.

Now stuff like this now appears implementable with China's technology level, as the JH-7A and the last versions of the Q-5 have shown. But whether or not they have shown up on the J-10, J-8H/F and the J-11B remains to be seen because there may be reasons why they choose to not to currently fit these on the aircraft. To keep things cheap? To rush things into service by lowering the requirements to the basic ones?

When I look at other examples throughout the PLA, like the Type 22 FACs, you get the feel that the PLA in general is still after grasping specialization, rather than multirole generalization. I think this is still heavily reflected more in the PLAAF than the other services. I still think they are still strongly in the grasp of traditional role doctrines defined by fighter (interceptor, air superiority), attacker, and bomber, rather than looking into an aircraft that fits all three.

I think it is ok for PRC to do that. They r a big country with power economic abilities. Many countries or expert will comdemn these kind of development for PLAAF but PRC may have enough resources to continue carry out these kind of doctrine. Just like building a big ship with all the resources putting on it. What happen if it is lost or destroy? Spreading out yr asset will prevent such kind of situation...
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Just because you're big and can afford it does not justify you for being less efficient though. The USAF has the largest air force but still try to squeeze as much worth out of the bucks they spent on each and every aircraft.

What I see the PLAAF does differently from all other airforces and their expensive next generation programs, is that the PLAAF tends to aim more moderately, be practical in the short run and keep ambitions more in the long run. Thus the planes are not spec'ed to be the best of everything, not try to do everything, or try to beat everyone, and as so, they don't run up astronomical sales bills. Better to get it out the door first then worry about things later.
 

Chengdu J-10

Junior Member
The PLAAF tend to constantly upgrade/ redesign there aircraft even though they are already quite modern and capable. Instead of finding a modern aircraft and then mass producing them the PLAAF produces a couple of the aircraft then upgrade them further and then produce another batch and then upgrade them even further. In my personal opinion the PLAAF should produce the aircrafts with the most advance and modern equipment the can get so that they wont need to keep redesigning and upgrading every so years. Instead if they upgraded with the most advance equipments they would have an aircraft that wouldn't need upgrading in the future as quickly even if other aircraft are designed they would already be in the same league without creating a new aircraft to counter it. Short term=Build extremely advance aircraft mass produce-> future just maintenance
Result=No need for constant upgrade
 

RedMercury

Junior Member
Actually that's probably the worst way to go. Incremental upgrades means shorter development-to-deployment time. If you wait for the "best", you'll be waiting a long time when you could've had 80% of the capability now and get the rest later when it's ready. Besides, the "best" is no longer the best in a few short years, so mass producing one static design in huge numbers just means you'll have lots of outdated designs in a few more years. Better is the enemy of good enough. You want capability deployed now, even if it is not up to par with outside standards. Upgrading isn't that bad if you have the mindset of making your designs upgrade-friendly. I.e. modularity and overdesgining and giving more space/payload than needed, in anticipation of future expansion.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
The PLAAF tend to constantly upgrade/ redesign there aircraft even though they are already quite modern and capable. Instead of finding a modern aircraft and then mass producing them the PLAAF produces a couple of the aircraft then upgrade them further and then produce another batch and then upgrade them even further. In my personal opinion the PLAAF should produce the aircrafts with the most advance and modern equipment the can get so that they wont need to keep redesigning and upgrading every so years. Instead if they upgraded with the most advance equipments they would have an aircraft that wouldn't need upgrading in the future as quickly even if other aircraft are designed they would already be in the same league without creating a new aircraft to counter it. Short term=Build extremely advance aircraft mass produce-> future just maintenance
Result=No need for constant upgrade
it's more like they are doing both. They do a lot of RnD. technologies developed from upgrading goes to newly designed aircrafts and vice versa.
 

swimmerXC

Unregistered
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Old or new? too busy these days...
i love their helmets...
mkk120506clk4.jpg

mkk120506tw6.jpg

mkk120506brd5.jpg

mkk120506aoc3.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top