China Flanker thread

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tphuang

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this was first posted by xinhui on CDF.
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Chinese Fighters Caused a Clash of Salut and Saturn
Russia’s two leaders of aircraft construction, Salut and Saturn, have clashed over the engine upgrading contracts for Su-27 and Su-30 fighters that were delivered to China some time ago. The aggregate upgrading may cost up to $2 billion, though the worth of the first consignment won’t exceed $180 million. Rosoboronexport is likely to choose a winner not by technical parameters but rather for political reasons, market players speculate.
Federal-run Salut Moscow Engineering Production Enterprise and Rybinsk Saturn (in tandem with Ufa Motor Construction Production Association) presented their own programs of upgrading Chinese fighters, sources close to contract negotiations said.

Salut came up with AL-31F-M1 engine of its own design, which benefits are the increased thrust and capacity. Saturn’s offer is to supply a new 117S, which is being tested now. This engine is based on AL-31FP that is used at Su-30MKI currently delivered by Irkut Corp. to India.

China has 273 Su fighters. It will have to upgrade 20 Su-27SKs and six Su-27UBKs in 2007 to 2008. Then, the time will come for 16 Su-27SKs and six 27UBKs.

Russia’s proposal to China is “to materially widen capacity of the aircraft” by replacing the engine, installing new system of control and equipping with modern devices, said sources with Rosoboronexport. The contract for replacing engines on the first 26 planes won’t be big in size. It will provide for replacing just 52 engines for a total worth of around $180 million. But all fighters of Beijing will have to be upgraded in the end, extending the overall contract budget up to $2 billion.
It's all getting confusing with all these AL-31 orders. Not sure if this 52 engines is part of that 180 engine order or not. Anyhow, it seems like the fighters will be upgraded to TVC engines. Would they need any kind of changes for this?
 

mehdi

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Strange that they are talking about upgrade of avionics I was hoping for something better like a coproduction deal of an advanced version of the Su-35. Well seems that I will have to wait for 2007.
 

crobato

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The 52 engines needed to upgrade said planes are not part of the 180 engine deal. The 180 engine deal is 100 engines from Salut, 80 engines from Saturn/UFA. I won't think they would need 52 engines, a few of these planes should have been lost to attrition by now. (But it appears to me that the majority of the old Flankers are still there, and the attrition is lower what the sensationalist Taiwan media or Chinese internet speculators like to believe).

The author of the article is still speculating that China intends to upgrade these old jets, perhaps via the Su-27SKM template. To be honest I won't mind having Su-27SKMs with J-11Bs. The old aircraft can be upgraded to the SKMs, while concurrently new aircraft are built to J-11Bs. The thing is, there may be plenty of changes in the J-11B that it would not be convenient to upgrade an Su-27SK to a J-11B.

But I gather the SKM isn't the technological and capability leap China is looking for. The SKM was designed for China when China's own budget and performance ambitions are more modest. Today, she may be satisfied no less than the Su-27SK (big) upgrade, which is practically a quasi Su-35, with TVC engines and IRBIS radar.
 

mehdi

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:mad: Well big upgrade is just a sensationalist word, :nutkick: for me it is would be a logical step in the right way. The Su-35 is not that advanced probably it will be in the Su-30 MKI standard but to a lesser extent. Russia have stated they would market an upgraded version of the Su-35 for China:china: . That's the plane that China should have. :D As China grows economically and military it should the best there is instead of going for Su-27SKM.:nono:
 

crobato

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SM is said to stand for small upgrade, while BM stands for big upgrade. So instead of just calling it Su-27BM like in Su-27SM, they made it Su-35BM because having a higher number simply sounds better.

Should and would are too different things. While China should have Su-35BMs, she probably wouldn't. Unless an Su-35 sale is used as incentive bait to get the Russians to release the RD-93 for second export to Pakistan, I don't really see a good probability for China to buy the Su-35. It does not offer that much over a J-11B, and China appears commited to support its own local military-industrial complex, which has developed their own weapons, avionics and other systems. The one Flanker buy from Russia that is most concievable would be the Su-33, especially the Su-33UB, because China can't do such a plane yet. Next to the list, would be the Su-34, before you come down to a two seat Su-30MKK evolved to an Su-35 type (Su-35BN).
 

Scratch

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Crobato, you mentioned the Su-34. Now this aircraft seems to be capable of fullfilling several tasks: attacker, EW and Recce ...
Wich version of that should/will the PLAAF aquire/develop ?
I mean J-11B is primary A-A role with secondary A2G. J-10 won't carry the payload of a -34 and is probanly less "strenght". So can the J-11B evolve further into a real attacker or is russian support needed.
And what about the role of a modern EW-aircraft that can go with front-line fighters. PLAAF seems to lack that. Last Recce, JZ-8 looks quiet adequate, though the airframe is not really state-of-the-art.

I'd welcome any info regarding that ...
 

crobato

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Any Flanker can already carry ECM pods on their wingtips, and in any given formation, some Flankers would be designated to carry the pods. If the PLAAF wants to go further with an ECW aircraft, they are already working on a Y-8 based platform that offers a lot more space and loiter time. The H-6 or JH-7A can also provide a platform for an ECW aircraft.

Payload weight is not that important in the age of PGMs.

To further develop the J-11B's attack capabilities, China has to do this on its own, since the J-11B will have to host a growing array of home built weapons like the YJ-83, the KD-88, the LS-6, the LT-2 and FT-1 bombs. Its not in Sukhoi's interest to do this.

Su-34 is still a far shot unless there is some kind of air to surface weapon China does not have but the Russians do. That list keeps growing shorter every year; the most notable exception remains that China still does not manufacture a bunker buster (YET) like the KAB-1500kr. I mention the Su-34 because I think it is a better platform for a power projection bomber following the Su-30MKK's footsteps. There is suggestive evidence that China is interested on the type following a leaked picture of an Su-34 like model being tested in a wind tunnel.

For recce, there are always the J-8IIs. They are ideal for flying fast and high. There is a SAR recce pod for the MKKs called the MR400, don't know if China purchased this or not, this kind of stuff don't seem to be required to be declared to the public or the UN as per arms treaty. Taiwan press did report an Su-30 attempting to recon the west Taiwan coastline with a pod, so they might have this.

What I like to see if China acquires the Su-35BM/BN or the Su-34 is for the planes to be used like a mini AWACS where they can be used to vector other planes towards aerial, shipping and ground targets. The Su-30MKK is already on its way to that, but its datalink is limited to supporting 16 other aircraft, usually its type or other Flankers, and the radar isn't good enough for long range (at least stand off ranges) high resolution ground and sea search and target finding. China's interest previously on the Zhuk series was because of the Zhuk's SAR capabilities not because of its A2A capabilities. It does not look to me that the Russians did solve this in time and the Chinese went ahead to create similar capabilities on their own radars. I would most certainly like to see what the SAR and the ground-sea-surface target finding abilities of the radars on the J-10, JH-7A, J-11B, and J-8H/F.

Previously when the PLA was adopting the JO (Joint Operations) doctrine, it is expected that dedicated recce and satellites will provide the ISR (Intel, Search, Recon) but this creates a rather "lumpy" command structure that isn't very flexible and is too highly top end heavy. Going to the IJO (Integrated Joint Operations) doctrine, the whole mission feedback loop of find target, attack target and access damage, is taken levels down so smaller units and lower levels of the PLA can perform more autonomously and generate mission cycles faster. With that in mind, it's better to bring down the ISR, and recce and command aircraft that functions like mini-AWACS would be the best way to do it.
 

mehdi

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But crobato on one hand having the Su-35(if the deal is made) coproduced in China and making the J-11B is not too much strain on the Chinese manufacturing sector. It's better that they go for only J-11B for now and upgrade it later with TVC and AESA radar instead of the Su-35. About the Su-34 would be great for China, but on the other hand are they ready to pay the price??? What's the unit price of a Su-34!!!
 

crobato

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For me making the Su-35 and the J-11B at the same time is redundant. If China ever buys the Su-35BN, it will probably be in a small quantity, perhaps up to 50 aircraft or two regiments. It won't justify licensing and self manufacture.

Like you said, its better to make the J-11B and upgrade them later. I am sure that if they do the J-11B, the twin seat version is quick to follows (J-11BS?) The latter would have provided the equivalence of an Su-30MKK.

I presume if the Su-34 is up for sale, it would be around the 50 million mark, like the Su-33. Of course the Su-34 isn't built with carrier mods like the Su-33. It probably won't be an exact copy of the RuAF Su-34, as likely the plane will have to be localized for China's needs, particularly on the logistics.

If Russia is serious about further direct Flanker sales to China, it is imperative they get their radars and fire control systems to be able to use Chinese AAMs and surface missiles, the PL-8s, PL-12s, YJ-83s and the like. That goes with the Su-35, Su-34 and Su-33. Or allow the Chinese to modify the radars. I am thinking the kind of partnership Japan had with the US on the F-15Js, which had domestic modifications to fire home grown weapons.
 

tphuang

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For me making the Su-35 and the J-11B at the same time is redundant. If China ever buys the Su-35BN, it will probably be in a small quantity, perhaps up to 50 aircraft or two regiments. It won't justify licensing and self manufacture.

Like you said, its better to make the J-11B and upgrade them later. I am sure that if they do the J-11B, the twin seat version is quick to follows (J-11BS?) The latter would have provided the equivalence of an Su-30MKK.

I presume if the Su-34 is up for sale, it would be around the 50 million mark, like the Su-33. Of course the Su-34 isn't built with carrier mods like the Su-33. It probably won't be an exact copy of the RuAF Su-34, as likely the plane will have to be localized for China's needs, particularly on the logistics.

If Russia is serious about further direct Flanker sales to China, it is imperative they get their radars and fire control systems to be able to use Chinese AAMs and surface missiles, the PL-8s, PL-12s, YJ-83s and the like. That goes with the Su-35, Su-34 and Su-33. Or allow the Chinese to modify the radars. I am thinking the kind of partnership Japan had with the US on the F-15Js, which had domestic modifications to fire home grown weapons.
I think the idea behind J-11BS is to create something in the mode of su-34/F-15K. It's kind of interesting, you have SAC developing something like su-34 based on their flanker experience and then you have XAC improving on JH-7 design. Presumably, SAC would have a better platform that can strike and provide decent air defense, but XAC would have a cheaper fighter/bomber with possibly longer combat radius (due to the better fuel efficiency of Spey). Either way, I don't see the need for su-34, considering that you would have the same problem as mk2 not being able to use Chinese missiles/PGMs.
 
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