China can and will achieve total air superiority over Taiwan

maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
:rofl:
like a story.
When the first runway was attacked, a mess, a half hours later, the various repair vehicles entered the airport runway, like gOLLY optimistic estimates, around three hours, repairs near completion.
But the second warheads and missiles exploded in the vicinity, people scattered Stampede ....
Maintenance suspended,commander of the airport,discussed with his supervisor, after a period of time, there has been no missile attack, the commander of the airport was ordered to repair the airport again, various maintenance vehicles re-entered the airport, the airport eventually maintenance completed, has been 8-10 hours.
But concrete asphalt not dry and hard yet, take some time before the aircraft can take off.
In this period, the battlefield changed a lot, a lot of fighting,suffered no air support.Of course, the missile attack may continue, things will repeat of the above.On the other hand,Poor conditions in the maintenance of airports, maintenance of vehicles and concretes, asphalts sediments, and other things may very far from the airport, it should be more time.
If cunning enemy choose rains to attacks, is there any asphalt,concrete not afraid of the rain? or other special material?
It can be said that this is war-like, we can discuss.
 
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N

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
maozedong said:
Maintenance suspended,commander of the airport,discussed with his supervisor, after a period of time, there has been no missile attack, the commander of the airport was ordered to repair the airport again, various maintenance vehicles re-entered the airport, the airport eventually maintenance completed, has been 8-10 hours.
But concrete asphalt not dry and hard yet, take some time before the aircraft can take off.

In this period, the battlefield changed a lot, a lot of fighting,suffered no air support.Of course, the missile attack may continue, things will repeat of the above.On the other hand,Poor conditions in the maintenance of airports, maintenance of vehicles and concretes, asphalts sediments, and other things may very far from the airport, it should be more time.
If cunning enemy choose rains to attacks, is there any asphalt,concrete not afraid of the rain? or other special material?

It can be said that this is war-like, we can discuss.
Click to expand...

Mao, the craters could simply going to be back-filled and then surfaced with interlocking fibreglass and alloy matts anchored into undamaged sections of the runway itself - Skorzeny graciously provided us with the link to that info:

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You are quite right however, that even though the craters may be filled within 3 hours under peacetime conditions, an enemy would of course seek to disrupt even temporary repairs, and you pointed out that this would take much longer than 3 hours; you gave the figure of 8-10. And that is entirely possible under wartime conditions - it would be much longer using concrete and asphalt. However, neither concrete nor asphalt would necessarily be required for runways repairs under wartime conditions.
 
Gollevainen

Gollevainen

Colonel
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Registered Member
Yeas war is never a thing that one can be prepaired for 100% Nor to less trying to estimate what would happen.;)
But with my explanation I wanted to bring to common knowledge what actual workphases runway remaking will encounter.
 
K

kw64

Junior Member
maozedong said:
:rofl:
like a story.
When the first runway was attacked, a mess, a half hours later, the various repair vehicles entered the airport runway, like gOLLY optimistic estimates, around three hours, repairs near completion.
But the second warheads and missiles exploded in the vicinity, people scattered Stampede ....
Maintenance suspended,commander of the airport,discussed with his supervisor, after a period of time, there has been no missile attack, the commander of the airport was ordered to repair the airport again, various maintenance vehicles re-entered the airport, the airport eventually maintenance completed, has been 8-10 hours.
But concrete asphalt not dry and hard yet, take some time before the aircraft can take off.
In this period, the battlefield changed a lot, a lot of fighting,suffered no air support.Of course, the missile attack may continue, things will repeat of the above.On the other hand,Poor conditions in the maintenance of airports, maintenance of vehicles and concretes, asphalts sediments, and other things may very far from the airport, it should be more time.
If cunning enemy choose rains to attacks, is there any asphalt,concrete not afraid of the rain? or other special material?
It can be said that this is war-like, we can discuss.
Click to expand...

I heard the U.S. has sold to Taiwan some quick runway repair kits which uses metal plate to cover the holes instead of filling them with concrete, and only takes less than an 1hr to fix a crater.
 
S

Skorzeny

Junior Member
maozedong said:
:rofl:
like a story.
When the first runway was attacked, a mess, a half hours later, the various repair vehicles entered the airport runway, like gOLLY optimistic estimates, around three hours, repairs near completion.
But the second warheads and missiles exploded in the vicinity, people scattered Stampede ....
Maintenance suspended,commander of the airport,discussed with his supervisor, after a period of time, there has been no missile attack, the commander of the airport was ordered to repair the airport again, various maintenance vehicles re-entered the airport, the airport eventually maintenance completed, has been 8-10 hours.
But concrete asphalt not dry and hard yet, take some time before the aircraft can take off.
In this period, the battlefield changed a lot, a lot of fighting,suffered no air support.Of course, the missile attack may continue, things will repeat of the above.On the other hand,Poor conditions in the maintenance of airports, maintenance of vehicles and concretes, asphalts sediments, and other things may very far from the airport, it should be more time.
If cunning enemy choose rains to attacks, is there any asphalt,concrete not afraid of the rain? or other special material?
It can be said that this is war-like, we can discuss.
Click to expand...

Ofcourse this could happen.

The point I am trying to make is that ballistic missiles isn`t a miracle weapon against airbases. They are expensive and not really suited to the task. That doesn`t mean they are totally ineffective, but they are not likely to shut down the airfields for long periods alone without using huge amounts.

Your "fog of war" scenario could also go the other way.
"30 ballistic missiles was fired at the airport. 4 malfunctioned in flight, 5 missed the airport alltogether, 5 was shot down. Of the remaining 16 missiles 4 hit one of the airstrips leaving it only operational for STOL aircraft, one strip stil undamaged. 11 dug up dirt between the strips, and one hit close to a shelter and jamming the doors of it. Flight operations going on as normal and we are sweeping the floor of the messhall for glass"

Isn`t really that far fetched this either and its very expensive!
 
King_Comm

King_Comm

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Note this:
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Anti-Runway bombs don't just create craters on the runway, they penetrate the concrete, explode underneath, raising up a proportion of the runway, much harder to repair than just a crater, which can be filled up with debris and then covered with steel plate. If used as submunitions for a ballistic missile, then the rocket motor can be eliminated, the weight can be reduced to 100kg, one SRBM will be able to carry 5 of these.

And against those who try to repair the airfields, teh anti-personnel submunition used by 250 series cluster bombs weigh 5kg each, so a SRBM can carry 100 of those, plus, WS-2 can be loaded onto large container ships and cover some of the airfields.
 
maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
Skorzeny said:
Ofcourse this could happen.

The point I am trying to make is that ballistic missiles isn`t a miracle weapon against airbases. They are expensive and not really suited to the task. That doesn`t mean they are totally ineffective, but they are not likely to shut down the airfields for long periods alone without using huge amounts.

Your "fog of war" scenario could also go the other way.
"30 ballistic missiles was fired at the airport. 4 malfunctioned in flight, 5 missed the airport alltogether, 5 was shot down. Of the remaining 16 missiles 4 hit one of the airstrips leaving it only operational for STOL aircraft, one strip stil undamaged. 11 dug up dirt between the strips, and one hit close to a shelter and jamming the doors of it. Flight operations going on as normal and we are sweeping the floor of the messhall for glass"

Isn`t really that far fetched this either and its very expensive!
Click to expand...

Yes, as Golly said, in the war anything can happen, my "story" is only one of them, and only two missiles hit the airport, but in reality, may be more missiles.
The airport is certainly a target of missile attacks, be it more expensive, but only tactical missiles, it can attack the government agencies, ports, major transport hubs, military bases, as well as airports, it will certainly not used to attack economic targets.
The missile can carry warheads even whatever form, penetrator, cluster, drilling high-explosived warheads and so on, the airport can use various means of destruction, depending on the needs of commanders what your program is one of them, but do not forget that SRBM fired at the same time, will also the launch missiles.
As for the US to provide maintenance of the new things,it is helpful for repairing demege hole of airport. but, as if to repair a big hole in the large area collapse, it is to contrution needed three hours.
in wartime,Airport maintenance people to work under dangerous conditions, the building maybe destroyed by cruise missiles, that is to say,repairing vehicles that may already have been destroyed, the airport lost maintenance conditions.
War, the status of any thing will happen
 
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crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Gollevainen said:
Of the CEP issues, Thpuang and Crobato.

You are still assuming that based on few different logics, you can have CEP of around 30m applied to all missiles. Yet its based on that very famous "If it can be this way, it can be that way too" thinking and we are just going around and round.

I also don't take Sinodefence as a gosbel, but we all a reliant to these public sources and at least I use to select the most reliable and accurate sources like SD.
To me if some magazine (which bias isen't 100% ruled out) states that some other missile had much better CEP than stated in SD, then the other missiles CEPs have to be wrong as well sounds wishfull thingking and applying the logic of selecting only the good stuff, and ignoring the bad.

I want to belive...again and again...;)

But to the holes in the ground.

For Rodger, have you ever worked with soilconstructing?
I try to explain it in most simpliest ways:
The layers which I mentioned are the stuctual layers of almoust any soilconstruction sites, roads, ground works of buildings and so on. First you make the filter layer. Then the weight distriputing layer and last the weight bearing layer. Its done basicly by just dumping the proper soilmaterial to the hole, compress it (which doesen't take practically no time whatsoever) make the next layer similar way and last you lay down the Asphalt or other consumptionlayers
If you want specisifc timeframes, give me the size of the hole(s) and we shall count the K2 and K3 capacityvalues adjusted to wartime situtions.

And to crobato, again when its war, the situation is harardious to all participants and yet it doesen't stop the fighting...
Click to expand...

Even with 300m CEP, you are going to hit an airbase around 10 to 20km in square area. And dont think its just all runaway we are dealing here, there is going to be other structures around, planes on the field, personnel going around, trucks running around. It will be a beehive of activity. Now disrupt this activity with the constant and random fear that a missile can come in at anytime, or one htat has already done its above the ground damage. Even if planes are not destroyed on surface, or personnel not killed in the process, or runaways destroyed, there will still be the disruption that will affect the maintance and mission turn around of the aircraft. How would surviving aircraft feel, running bingo on fuel, having to return to its homebase only finding out the runaway is still closed for repairs. Sorry, a plane cannot wait for two to three hours before it is fixed. It has to fly somewhere else, hopefully it is not disrupted too. If it has to land on someplace that cnnnot maintain or turn it around, its good as mission dead for a while.

That airbase is not going to be 100% efficient compared to one that is not going to be fired upon, and that alone will be instrumental, because your logistical and maintenance infrastructure will not be there to back you up, when the other guy has it in spades. The problem remains that Taiwan does not have a very distributed and redundant airfield system that Sweden or China does. Just look and study how the Swedes prepared to make their airforce survivable in the face of a Soviet attack, and you will see that Taiwan is not even a close comparison.
 
maozedong

maozedong

Banned Idiot
King_Comm said:
Note this:

And against those who try to repair the airfields, teh anti-personnel submunition used by 250 series cluster bombs weigh 5kg each, so a SRBM can carry 100 of those, plus, WS-2 can be loaded onto large container ships and cover some of the airfields.
Click to expand...

you are report is another better way,most of your think are right.only one thing I doubt,that is WS-2 should be used for landing,whatever it load onto ship or in the land.long times ago there reported PLA artillery trained to shells at Civilian vessels,I think all of these shell for landing,all of these action should be in the situation that PLA after the total air superiority.
 
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Z

zraver

Junior Member
VIP Professional
why even target runways unless it is a suprise attack out of the blue. If there had been building tensions and the US spy sats saw the PLA/PLAAF assets moving opposite Taiwan then those RoCAF fighters are dispersed. The targets will be fuel sites, depots, and radar/comm units the RoCAF needs to keep those fighters in the fight.

just my 2 cents
 
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