Cause and effect of Chinese GDP & ecnomic growth Worldwide.

Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

antimatter said:

#1 explain China's got butchering up during Qing's time.
#3 Asian financial Crisis 97, foreign funds jacked up real estate price.
#6 Navy tech is more demanding than land based.
#26 Not the current Crisis he's talking about but future CHina recession or crisis creates opportunity for hegemonic power.

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#1: Dynasties rise and fall. That doesn't preclude the fact that at their heights, the Han, Tang, Ming, and yes, Qing dynasties were superpowers.

#3: Last time I checked, China's economy didn't crash in 97.

#6: So what? Just because something is more demanding doesn't mean it's the right thing to pursue.

#26: That makes no sense. If he's saying that the USA is trying to engineer a future financial crisis to cause China's downfall, then he should have some evidence to back up that claim.

Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

solarz said:

#1: Dynasties rise and fall. That doesn't preclude the fact that at their heights, the Han, Tang, Ming, and yes, Qing dynasties were superpowers.

#3: Last time I checked, China's economy didn't crash in 97.

#6: So what? Just because something is more demanding doesn't mean it's the right thing to pursue.

#26: That makes no sense. If he's saying that the USA is trying to engineer a future financial crisis to cause China's downfall, then he should have some evidence to back up that claim.

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1 Those great dynasties still no match against european cannons and guns if those guy came at those time. Great is a relative term

3 You original statement is foreign fund didn't play role in real estate.

6 so you saying China has no rights to pursue navy? how original.

7. waiting for financial crisis opportunity as opposed to engineering.

Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

antimatter said:

Let's do a China Crisis situation. Let's say CHina has a great economic recession, alot of unemployment, banking in crisis, alot of social upheaval, and so calling for fall of CCP.

then suddenly the external elements come all at the same time
1)India forces going into Aksai Chin
2)Taiwan declaring Independence
3)Vietnam with ASEAN alies taking on islands on South CHina Sea
4)South Korea going into North Korea.
5)uigurs and tibetans staging armed revolts

Can China handle a severe economic crisis and external elements see chances to do damages and jump at the opportunity.

Ability to handle such crisis is what make a country strong. Not real estate.

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All this talk of small country ganging up on China is nothing more than wishfull thinking on the part of Neo Conservative

If you live next door to 800 Lb gorilla, You will do every thing not to upset the monster.

Let see what really happened in history. During Ming time Vietnam actually beat Ming invasion force but instead of bragging and needling Ming, they send delegation to Beijing to acknowledge Ming suzeranity over Vietnam knowing well that they will be left alone.All they need is to molify China.

Fast forward in modern time the same thing happened after Chinese invasion of 1989. With their economy in tatter, they were left in the cold by the Russion collapse. Continuing conflict will only bring disaster to Vietnam. They again sent delegaion to Beijing in effect asking for peace and promise to witdraw their army from Cambodia

As for India they were mauled so badly in 1962 that my nextdoor neighbor, an Indian doctor told me, that all the resistance is collapsed and everybody expecting Chinese army to march in Delhi. I don't know if they want the same thing again.

Korea well, during the korean war Chinese army regularly rout Korean army And at that time chinese army is peasant army with no air cover, armor, or heavy weapon basically infantry with some artillery support.

Tibet and Uighur well their combined population is less than 10 million what can they do?

Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

antimatter said:

1 Those great dynasties still no match against european cannons and guns if those guy came at those time. Great is a relative term

Click to expand...

Actually I am thinking of backing out from this definitely useless discussion, but just couldn't resist the temptation (damn... I am one weak willed individual), anyway:

I think you do not know what you are talking about in this case. Those great dynasties are hundreds of years (except for Ming and Qing) to thousands of years ago. If the Chinese could create cannons and guns at that time... damn... they are more than just good.

Stop using something that happen now to imagine what it is like if this things are in the past. Even if the chinese were to focus on engineering during those eras, they would not come up with cannons and guns. First thing first, they have to come out with the black powder first (which incidentally was developed by the Chinese).

antimatter said:

3 You original statement is foreign fund didn't play role in real estate.

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Actually the chinese did have control over how the real estate. Not everyone could buy lands that easily. And if you are so much as a wee bit of business man you would know that for all commercial entities, you design and create something that there would be a market for. So if the Chinese are buying these real estate, then it means they have the money to do it. So what is the problem?

antimatter said:

6 so you saying China has no rights to pursue navy? how original.

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He is saying that just because it is more expensive and stuffs like that (I believe), it doesn't means the Chinese must pursue navy. And by the way, if you have not know... Chinese had been modernising their Navy for... 10 years or more. And they have one of the best in the world now... except for the aircraft carrier which was to come soon.

antimatter said:

7. waiting for financial crisis opportunity as opposed to engineering.

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I don't even know what you are talking here... I mean, who the hell wanted to wait for a financial crisis, China had been doing alot to prevent a financial crisis, steps taken are:
1) Controlling of currency
2) Buying of US bonds and foreign reserve to preserve her own currency.
3) Controlling of the financial institutes like banks and investing companies.
4) Preventing a rise in the RMB so as to prevent inflation.

During crisis, I believe there are also many steps taken by the government to prevent an all out collapse of the economy sector.

As to if other foreign power is involved in engineering the downfall of China... well either they are stupid or what. All superpower's or would be superpower economy is tied closely together... if China collapse, many other nations collapsed too.



The basic idea is there is a fix GDP in China, and the main income for the CHinese came from exporting of their manufactured products. Real Estate etc, did contribute to this GDP too, but not overwhelmingly.

The only problem or challenge now for the CHinese government is to prevent overheating due to infration. And I think they are doing a good job.

Stop using the small and narrow sighted view of trying to put engineering infront. As I have said before, China is not US, not Japan, not Europe or S.Korea. China had a huge population, you need to think of the rest of the population.

Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

antimatter said:

1 Those great dynasties still no match against european cannons and guns if those guy came at those time. Great is a relative term

3 You original statement is foreign fund didn't play role in real estate.

6 so you saying China has no rights to pursue navy? how original.

7. waiting for financial crisis opportunity as opposed to engineering.

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I think you're seriously confused. Maybe some part is due to language issues, but other part definitely shows that you are not very aware of history.

FYI, early Qing under Kangxi fought a war with Russia, which did involve guns and canons. The Qing won that war, and with it came a treaty that secured the border for a long time. That border, in fact, was beyond the current border of the PRC.

Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

1 Those great dynasties still no match against european cannons and guns if those guy came at those time. Great is a relative term

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European armies fought mostly using formations of pikemen, matchlock muskets, and cannon up until the late 17th century. The Ming army also possessed those weapons, along with more developed cavalry, both heavy and light. The Chinese armies also numbered in the hundreds of thousands as opposed to the tens of thousands.

Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

solarz said:

If this guy actually had any credentials, he wouldn't be posting his views on the internet.

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He didn't. Other people did.

solarz said:

#1: what is this guy talking about? China has often been a superpower in history. China hasn't been a global superpower because globalization happened only recently.

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You have deliberately misinterpreted what he said. It is the mentality of thriving to be a superpower that he was referring to. Over the past few hundred years, China did indeed kept to itself instead of practicing expansionism. And being satisfied with what it had led to development stagnation and is what ultimately brought on the hundreds years of humiliation.

solarz said:

#3: what the hell is this guy on? The real estate market is a foreign conspiracy? Robbing the people's wealth? Hello, if people didn't stand to
make money on real estate, they wouldn't invest in it.

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If there are people in China who can't afford housing because it is so expensive, and there are not enough rich people in China to buy up all the real estates, then that means the buyers of the remaining real estates must come from outside of China. Ever wonder why the property and stock markets in China have little to do with the actual economy? That's because these markets are war zones -- outside forces constantly trying to create and burst a bubble and the Chinese government constantly trying to deflate the bubble. Collapsing China is the ultimate goal for these outside forces.

solarz said:

#6: he is contradicting himself from point #1, where he mentions the threat of China's neighboring nations. What is a navy going to do against an India or Russian threat? And he claims to be in the military? Doesn't he realize that China has been a traditional land power precisely because it needs a strong army (as opposed to navy) in order to defend against land-based threats?

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You again misinterpreted what he said. He didn't suggest a navy only, but he also mentioned taking advantage of space. Being a land power didn't help the Qing Dynasty back then, and being soley a land power today will eventually get encircled.

solarz said:

#10: so he is recommending that China follows in the US's footsteps. What a fool.

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There is no mentioning of US in #10, only that a good offsense is a good defense.

solarz said:

#14: he should read this thread.

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And how should China protect its trade routes in places like middle east without aircraft carriers? If one day US decides to place a blockade on China, what can China do without aircraft carriers?

solarz said:

#16: how about some facts, instead of empty hyperboles and unsupported claims.

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How about you stop misinterpreting what he said?

solarz said:

#18: apparently he's never heard of Zheng He.

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Apparently, Zheng He didn't understand navy either, because if he did, his fleets would help generate revenues by protecting trade routes, not being a giant money hole.

solarz said:

#26: if the financial crisis is an American conspiracy, then China needs more conspiracies like this.

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You should read his actual views instead of someone else's summary.

Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

rhino123 said:

Actually I am thinking of backing out from this definitely useless discussion, but just couldn't resist the temptation (damn... I am one weak willed individual), anyway:

I think you do not know what you are talking about in this case. Those great dynasties are hundreds of years (except for Ming and Qing) to thousands of years ago. If the Chinese could create cannons and guns at that time... damn... they are more than just good.

Stop using something that happen now to imagine what it is like if this things are in the past. Even if the chinese were to focus on engineering during those eras, they would not come up with cannons and guns. First thing first, they have to come out with the black powder first (which incidentally was developed by the Chinese).





Actually the chinese did have control over how the real estate. Not everyone could buy lands that easily. And if you are so much as a wee bit of business man you would know that for all commercial entities, you design and create something that there would be a market for. So if the Chinese are buying these real estate, then it means they have the money to do it. So what is the problem?




He is saying that just because it is more expensive and stuffs like that (I believe), it doesn't means the Chinese must pursue navy. And by the way, if you have not know... Chinese had been modernising their Navy for... 10 years or more. And they have one of the best in the world now... except for the aircraft carrier which was to come soon.



I don't even know what you are talking here... I mean, who the hell wanted to wait for a financial crisis, China had been doing alot to prevent a financial crisis, steps taken are:
1) Controlling of currency
2) Buying of US bonds and foreign reserve to preserve her own currency.
3) Controlling of the financial institutes like banks and investing companies.
4) Preventing a rise in the RMB so as to prevent inflation.

During crisis, I believe there are also many steps taken by the government to prevent an all out collapse of the economy sector.

As to if other foreign power is involved in engineering the downfall of China... well either they are stupid or what. All superpower's or would be superpower economy is tied closely together... if China collapse, many other nations collapsed too.



The basic idea is there is a fix GDP in China, and the main income for the CHinese came from exporting of their manufactured products. Real Estate etc, did contribute to this GDP too, but not overwhelmingly.

The only problem or challenge now for the CHinese government is to prevent overheating due to infration. And I think they are doing a good job.

Stop using the small and narrow sighted view of trying to put engineering infront. As I have said before, China is not US, not Japan, not Europe or S.Korea. China had a huge population, you need to think of the rest of the population.

Click to expand...

I doubt you understand Chinese. I don't think you understand what he means in article. Those translation won't be enough apparently.

So, I won't go any further on that.

Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

rhino123 said:

You keep saying that there are stories of this and that. Do you have link for those that you claim.

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yep, you right I said clearly in my post I heard those story from family members that are in China now. So I can understand if you don't buy it, but I do, since I feel there is no reasons why many of my family members that works in the real estate industy would lie to me at dinner table. And I am also sure you can look on any Chinese website you can find mutiple accounts of government officials confiscating land at local level.

solarz said:

Dude, what are you talking about? Houses for 80,000 RMB? I'll take a dozen please! Apartments for a 250k RMB? That's damn cheap, and you'll probably only find it in small cities.

What do you think is the monthly salary of the average Chinese professional? In small cities, it's easily 3k - 5k. In large cities, it can go up to 12k.

Wait, you're a laborer? Then what the hell makes you think you're able to buy a house? How many laborers are able to afford their own houses in Toronto or New York?

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you do noticed when I mentioned 250k houses I did mention the word "cheapest" before it, right buddy? and could you explain to me how the average Chinese, (not your Beijing living, daddy and uncles are CCP officials, with a MBA from Fudan) have 250k in their savings accounts. I know Chinese have to pay up front for their house most of the time. If this family have kids and elderly, than wow... there is school (super expensive if you want go to good ones), nanny for their parents, food (cheapest part). It is really hard for an average middle class family to save up to buy even the cheapest apartment you can find. I call that a problem. And that is what you call 250k damn cheap right?

And the houses that are 80,000 RMBs are build by government for homeless and super low income individuals. normal people can't buy it, you have to apply for it. I am saying the government charge homeless and laborers for a 80,000 RMBs apartment are just stupid. How are they going to buy it? sell their poor kid perhaps? (sarcasm)

solarz said:

I think you're seriously confused. Maybe some part is due to language issues, but other part definitely shows that you are not very aware of history.

FYI, early Qing under Kangxi fought a war with Russia, which did involve guns and canons. The Qing won that war, and with it came a treaty that secured the border for a long time. That border, in fact, was beyond the current border of the PRC.

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Talking about history, you do know that Qing have 7 times the man power (1500) than the Russian (est. 2000) at the Amur river right? and some of the russian forces are cossack calvary that use swords too. Russian's defeat is mainly due to the one and half month long supply line, the weakness of Russian monarch and its internal conflict between peter I and Ivan V, and their court. The main focus of Russia forces at the time are Poland and Sweden, not some small outpost 2 month away in Sibera Asia. and 200 years later who again win over the Amur region? Russian, without firing a shot.

Re: In 1840, CHina has the highest GDP in the world but.....

　21、中国已被C型战略包围

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since 1949, China has already been " C "shape surround by Western alliance. in that time colonel Dai was not born yet.
in 1960s, China was " U " shape surround by Western alliance and Soveit Union, india....in that time colonel Dai just was a child.
忘战必危-He just reminds people that do not forget the possibility of War coming.so many people talk about this in chinese forum, not only he knows this.
From Deng Xiaoping to Jiang Zemin, and now China's leaders are committed to modernization of national defense.

十八、认为中国六百年来没有人懂海军；

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what the hell he think he is.
Ancient Chinese feudal rulers who do not attach importance to the sea, does not mean that no one understands the sea,Zheng He's fleet, can monopolize the ocean, but because by historical conditions, was not necessary to do so.
Qing Li Hongzhang has already built a North Sea Fleet, the Asia most powerful navy fleet, in 1894 Sino-Japan war,China's defeat, because Qing rulers of the corruption and incompetence, Li understand the sea,but he could do no thing.
Mao three times wrote article:China must build a strong navy.(中国必须建立强大的海军)
today China is not Qing dynasty,China needs time to build a powerful navy and airforce, we now refit Vayarg and plan to build new carrier, and 4th generation fighter under develop,like PLAAF deputy commander Ho said:they are stepping up the work.(正密箩紧豉地进行)
Do Not equivalent to today's China the Qing Dynasty.
1840s,only several thousand British troops deffeated Qing dynasty,this is a joke,Japanese fleet defeated more powerful Qing North Sea Fleet, this is another joke,because Qing rulers of the corruption and incompetence.
决定战争胜负的,是人不是物.1950,Korean War, the Chinese troops forced UN troops back to South Korea,in that time,China was so poor and backward.