re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Well the similarly sized P17 is 2200t heavier than a 054A.
Well the similarly sized P17 is 2200t heavier than a 054A.
071 LPD thread
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Mysterre
Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Also, nobody is going to consider well decks packed with MRE's. "Full displacement" refers to combat missions.
Full load departure or full displacement:
Along with all the Lightship loads, the vessel has all systems charged meaning that all fresh water, cooling, lubricating, hydraulic and fuel service header tanks, piping and equipment systems are filled with their normal operating fluids. Crew and effects are at their normal values. Consumables (provisions, potable water and fuel) are at 100% capacity. Ammunition and/or cargo is at maximum capacity. The vessel is at its limiting draft or legal load line.
You think it's entirely possible, but do you really know how much? What if the difference between "standard" and "full" displacement is 2,000 tons? Or 1,000 tons? Do you know how much beyond more than just a guess?
Also, nobody is going to consider well decks packed with MRE's. "Full displacement" refers to combat missions.
Full load departure or full displacement:
Along with all the Lightship loads, the vessel has all systems charged meaning that all fresh water, cooling, lubricating, hydraulic and fuel service header tanks, piping and equipment systems are filled with their normal operating fluids. Crew and effects are at their normal values. Consumables (provisions, potable water and fuel) are at 100% capacity. Ammunition and/or cargo is at maximum capacity. The vessel is at its limiting draft or legal load line.
"Hull" is the not the same thing as "size". The hull of a ship does not include its superstructure, and that is where the two ships differ dramatically. This has been my entire point regarding the difference between horizontal or oblique photos vs overhead (GE) shots. The superstructure of the 17 is much larger than that of the 071. That stepped forward superstructure of the 071 that fanboys always complain about, lack of proper surface area/volume utilization and all that? Well why the hell did people stop complaining and forget about this deficiency all of a sudden? When they needed a bigger phallus to compare against the SA, of course. And this is of course the bottom line in all this displacement envy. Not an unbiased look at the actual photographic evidence, but a desire to have a bigger d&ck than the other guy, to put it bluntly. The 071 is smaller, no need to feel ashamed about it or try to find possible reasons to invalidate it. Just look at the photos. The poorly utilized forward superstructure of the 071 has been filled in by the forward superstructure of the SA. That forward area alone makes the SA at least a few thousand tons heavier than the 071.
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
These are the official USN statistics on the San Antonio LPD 17 class.;
These are the official USN statistics on the San Antonio LPD 17 class.;
| General Characteristics, San Antonio class |
| Builder: Huntington Ingalls Industries (formerly Northrop Grumman Ships Systems), with Raytheon Systems Corporation and Intergraph Corporation. |
| Propulsion: Four sequentially turbocharged marine Colt-Pielstick Diesels, two shafts, 41,600 shaft horsepower. |
| Length: 684 feet (208.5 meters). |
| Beam: 105 feet (31.9 meters). |
| Displacement: Approximately 25,586 long tons (full load). |
| Speed: In excess of 22 knots |
| Crew: Ship's Company: 360 Sailors (28 officers, 332 enlisted) and 3 Marines. Embarked Landing Force: 699 (66 officers, 633 enlisted); surge capacity to 800. |
| Armament: Two MK 46 Mod 2 guns, fore and aft; two Rolling Airframe Missile launchers, fore and aft: nine .50 calibre machine guns. |
| Aircraft: Launch or land two CH53E Super Stallion helicopters or two MV-22 Osprey tilt rotor aircraft or up to four CH-46 Sea Knight helicopters, AH-1 or UH-1 helicopters. |
| Landing/Attack Craft: Two LCACs or one LCU; and 14 Expeditionary Fighting Vehicles/Amphibious Assault Vehicles. |
| Ships: |
| , Norfolk, VA |
| , San Diego, CA |
| , Norfolk, VA |
| , San Diego, CA |
| USS New York (LPD 21), Norfok, VA |
| USS San Diego (LPD 22) - San Diego CA |
| Anchorage (LPD 23), under construction - Christened May 14, 2011 |
| Arlington (LPD 24), under construction - Christened March 26, 2011 |
| Somerset (LPD 25), under construction |
| John P. Murtha (LPD 26) - under construction |
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Here's a comparison chart from Global Security;
This is what Naval Technology states about the LPD-71 class propulsion;
Here's a comparison chart from Global Security;
| Specifications | |||
| Type 071 Yuzhao | |||
| Displacement | 19,000 tons [17,000 - 20,000 - 25,000 ?? tons ](estimated) | 16,360 tons | 25,000 tons |
| Length | 213 m / 689 feet | 610 ft | 684 ft |
| Beam | 31 m / 100 ft 26.5 m / 86 ft (estimated) | 84 ft | 105 ft |
| Draft | 7 m / 23 ft (estimated) | 21 ft | 23 ft |
| Speed | 20 kt (estimated) | 20 kt | 22 kt |
| Endurance | 6,000 at 18 kts (estimated) | 8,000 nm | |
| Propulsion | CODAD, 2-shaft, 4 x SEMT Pielstick 16 PC2.6 V400 Diesel engines (35,200 kW) | CODAD, 2-shaft, 4 Turbo charged x SEMT Colt- Pielstick 16 PC2.5 V400 Diesel engines (31,000 kW) | |
| Armament: | 1 x AK-176, 76 mm gun 4 x AK-630, 30 mm CIWS Possible 2-4 heavy machine-guns (fitted for but not with) 4 x 18-tube Type 726-4 decoy/chaff launcher | ||
| Sensors | Surface search radar: 1 x Type 360 Radar Seagull S, E/F-band Air search radar: 1 x Type 364 Radar, Seagull C, G-band, aft Fire control radar: 1 x Type 344 Radar, I band radar: 1 | ||
| Complement | 120 [this seems low] | 347-413 | 396 |
| troops | 400-800 | 402 | 699 |
| Military lift | 4 air-cushion vehicles 2 x LCVP port/starboard | 4 LCAC | 2 LCAC |
| Helicopters | 2-4 Z-8 Super Frelon | - 0 - | 1 or 2 s, or 2 s, or 4 s, or 4 s |
This is what Naval Technology states about the LPD-71 class propulsion;
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asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
That is the biggest load of tut I've read in my life, who cares what if SA is bigger then Type 071 or vice versa does it even matter stop making assumptions
Fact is this, Type 071 LPD can take 4 x Z8 and 4 x LCAC, that means in a over horizon attack in a single wave 500 marines can be deployed in a 3D drop and carry 800 troops, that is the capability the Type 071 LPD brings to China and that's what counts and was probably the requirment set during the design work, it is infact what SA could probably do at best too so who cares if it's well deck is 2m wider or whatever the comparison is
Another thread ruined because of comparison rather than talking about capabilitys
That is the biggest load of tut I've read in my life, who cares what if SA is bigger then Type 071 or vice versa does it even matter stop making assumptions
Fact is this, Type 071 LPD can take 4 x Z8 and 4 x LCAC, that means in a over horizon attack in a single wave 500 marines can be deployed in a 3D drop and carry 800 troops, that is the capability the Type 071 LPD brings to China and that's what counts and was probably the requirment set during the design work, it is infact what SA could probably do at best too so who cares if it's well deck is 2m wider or whatever the comparison is
Another thread ruined because of comparison rather than talking about capabilitys
Mysterre
Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Comparing the capabilities of two similar ships based on what we know is frequently done as a means of measuring one ship against another, especially if it will help clarify limits of capabilities. Also, it sounds like you are making a bunch of your own assumptions about how much the 071 can deploy in a single wave.
Comparing the capabilities of two similar ships based on what we know is frequently done as a means of measuring one ship against another, especially if it will help clarify limits of capabilities. Also, it sounds like you are making a bunch of your own assumptions about how much the 071 can deploy in a single wave.
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asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Don't even go there, this comparison is pointless and waste of time, the 2 countrys sea lifts don't even compare, even if Type 071 LPD is bigger US has 12 x San Antonios in development and American LHDs are the size of powerful county's aircraft carriers
Let's enjoy what we see coming out its a massive improvement for China and does not always require a comparison with USN
Don't even go there, this comparison is pointless and waste of time, the 2 countrys sea lifts don't even compare, even if Type 071 LPD is bigger US has 12 x San Antonios in development and American LHDs are the size of powerful county's aircraft carriers
Let's enjoy what we see coming out its a massive improvement for China and does not always require a comparison with USN
Mysterre
Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
I actually enjoy this comparison because it differentiates intent and capabilities of two similarly-sized vessels and helps to measure the progress of the PLAN wrt the gold standard, which whether you like it or not is the USN. And I will go "there" if I feel like it, if by there you mean your humorous assumptions about how much force the 071 can deploy in a single wave. It seems we are all making assumptions here, some more 'humorous' than others.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
We have seen cut ways and detailed images of Type 071 LPD that show the hangers can take 4 x Z8, it's also evident that it can take 4 x LCAC, if each LCAC can take 100 marines that's 400 marines deployed by sea, and each Z8 can take 25 marines so that's 100 marines by airdrop total 500, so wheres the problem? no assumptions only facts based on concrete information, available to you, me and everyone else, if you look at large amphibious craft this is a typical wave nothing special
We have seen cut ways and detailed images of Type 071 LPD that show the hangers can take 4 x Z8, it's also evident that it can take 4 x LCAC, if each LCAC can take 100 marines that's 400 marines deployed by sea, and each Z8 can take 25 marines so that's 100 marines by airdrop total 500, so wheres the problem? no assumptions only facts based on concrete information, available to you, me and everyone else, if you look at large amphibious craft this is a typical wave nothing special
Mysterre
Banned Idiot
re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
Who said all 4 ACV's would be used to carry troops? This is what I'm talking about you're making humorous assumptions. 500 troops at once from the same LPD is not a "typical wave" especially without simultaneous deployment of HMMWV's and other support vehicles which cannot swim to shore, so I don't know where in the world you got that from. A landing force is a multi-element setup that includes many vehicles in addition to troops. I would also expect at least one ACV per 071 in the landing force per sortie to be carrying an MBT as its sole load (or possibly including a truck or two). Factor in the HMMWV's, fuel trucks, 5-ton trucks, and you'd be lucky to spare a single ACV to use for actually carrying troops. The main means of troop deployment will come from the Z-8's, which are perfectly suited for rapid deployment and much higher sortie rates than ACV's. In fact I'm willing to bet all 4 Z-8's could complete 2 or 3 sorties in the time it takes an ACV to complete a single sortie. The strength of the ACV is being able to transport several non-amphibious vehicles at once, something not efficiently done with a Z-8. They would not foolishly use all 4 ACV's to haul troops at the same time when those troops would be more easily transported by helo, nor would they foolishly try to sling vehicles on to the shore using helos when those vehicles would be more easily transported by ACV.