re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft
I thought Mysterre was a decent member until the last 3 pages in this thread.
Now I realise he is just a delusional fanboy bordering on troll, thinking he knows EVERYTHING and his opinion is greater than the others. LOL!
He accuses others of assumptions when HE is doing the same thing.
His ego seems incapable of accepting the PLAN might have something similar to his 'invincible' USN.
He is trying his best to convince himself the PLAN will ALWAYS have inferior capabilities to the USN.
Dream on...
Actually I think many of you are the delusional fanboys here. It's also not "my" USN; straw man attacks are a sign of a weak mind. You are also making a slew of personal attacks which just shows you are mentally incapable of debating me on a point by point basis. If you disagree with what I just said, go ahead and bring it on. I've never shied away from slugging out the details, but when people can only attack with generalities and non-specific nonsense, it contributes nothing to the discussion besides making me LOL. The hallmark of a troll is not someone who disagrees with you on the details of a debate, it is someone who does not know how to argue his desired points, or does not want to, and so has to resort instead to the kind of posting you just put up.
The full displacement figure given by PLAN is 28,000t, and that's why this whole debate started since it's a number larger than any previous estimations. According to standard Chinese maritime definition, the "over 19,000t normal displacement" include hull, mechanical components, weapons components, crew, ammo, dry supplies, fresh water, 1/2 fuel, 1/2 lubricant, 1/2 boiler water. It is used to describe the displacement the vessel exhibits during yard trials prior to delivery. So yeah the 64 ZBD05 and ammo, and helicopters, and marines, and the other vehicles, and half the fuel are not included.
I do not accept that the 28,000 ton figure is given by the "PLAN". You are so ready to accept this figure without any other evidence of it being true, despite several of you trying so hard. This is EXACTLY like the 054A plaque describing a VLS capable of launching SAM's and ASW rockets, which despite NO OTHER EVIDENCE of its existence, was then spun as definitive proof that the PLAN currently operates a sino-VLA. This may or may not be the case, just like the 28,000 ton figure may or may not be accurate, but the (vehement) willingness of some of you to so readily accept this report without additional evidence, just indicates to me you are not being critical enough and just want to subscribe to whatever makes you feel better (about yourselves, I'm guessing). So somebody heard from somebody who heard from some sailor who claimed that the 071 is larger, and this is now 071 Gospel straight from the PLAN? What about the 5 foot wider beam (unintentionally and humorously) listed by someone trying to "prove" the 071 was larger due to its 5 ft longer length, presumably delineated by GE? How about the definitive photographic evidence of an obviously larger superstructure? How about all the previous estimates putting it at 18,000 to 20,000 tons? Many of these pieces are IMO more concrete evidence than the single rumor of a rumor, but clearly to some these are far more easily discarded when a larger tonnage number can be latched onto. So you think it's not possible that some guy heard from some guy who made up a story? Did you guys consider this possibility before you subscribed to this report lock, stock and barrel? So Chinese military fanboys are the only ones who are pure of mind and soul? All that fanart routinely being passed off as the real deal must be done by non-Chinese artists bent on mayhem and mischief then. Alternatively, you could consider this report and take it with a grain of salt until some additional confirmation is available that contradicts more definitively all the other evidence that is already available, which I have already listed.
In the contrary, it reinforced the complaint about the inefficiency of the design. I mean with such large displacement how come the 071 doesn't have a larger superstructure. Due to the shorter superstructure and emphasis on vehicle/ACV/aviation carriage, the ship lacks some features that the SA has. For example, creature comfort facilities such as a gym, as demonstrated during its Gulf of Aden tour that a makeshift gym has to be setup on the vehicle deck. Or integrated RHIB, since small patrol boats have to dock inside the well deck instead of hoisted onto the RHIB deck on top of SA's superstructure. All those are design compromises to allow the ship carry and deliver a large number of amphibious assets to the beach in the shortest time period by prioritizing spaces to cargo related purposes. In a sense it's still a ship to project power regionally not globally.
I'm not sure how prioritizing a given volume towards combat rather than creature comforts means it has a larger displacement. It is a clear unambiguous fact that the superstructure on the SA is larger than that on the 071. And if we are to believe the GE-derived length and beam estimates, just those numbers alone would indicate the SA is larger than the 071. Also, the speed estimate of "20 knots" means nothing to me, and to be honest it should mean nothing to anyone else. I could throw out a random number too: "22 knots". Now who can prove to me this number is less correct than "20 knots"? At least the length/width estimates have some basis in objectively repeatable reality (via GE), and if even roughly accurate, indicates that the SA is larger. Beam trumps length here; it's nothing other than basic math that needs to be understood to realize why this is so. If the 071 turns out to be 28,000 tons, would I be utterly surprised? Not really. OTOH, would some people here be utterly shocked if the 071 were later found to be only 20,000 tons or thereabouts? Yes, I think they would. And that is the difference between healthy skepticism and blind faith.
I respect his opinion and try to have a healthy discussion but seeing him suppressing other members' opinion day by day is just unacceptable. I don't think he's a troll though.
Please tell me which opinions I am "suppressing". The fact that I disagree with an opinion is evidence that I am suppressing it? How about my opinion that the 054A plaque was not necessarily definitive proof that the PLAN is currently operating a sino-VLA? How many angry trolls rose up from the SDF woodworks to suppress this opinion, and yet were unable to nullify my points? If you think this is not what happened, I'm ready to go over the same details again anytime, anywhere and/or directly link back to the posts to demonstrate exactly what I'm saying here. And now look at all the trolls coming out of the woodworks without any actual opinions on the subject at hand. Look at antiterror13's non-relevant trolling. Look at J-XX's non-relevant trolling. Look, if people don't want to hear something that is not the non-stop PLAN heavenly music to their ears that they are used to indulging themselves in, they don't have to read or respond to my posts. But my posts are not incorrect just because they cause some cognitive dissonance in some peoples' minds between desire and reality.
Agree! I don't think the crew statement is too far off given the spec we have compare between SA and 071. Shocking someone outright denied it. Probably if we make some absurd under spec statement of 071 like is only 7000 tons and had speed of 7 knots and no ballast.
He will immediately accept it without even thinking...
No I would subject your 7,000 ton claims to the same type of deductive reasoning I apply to the 28,000 ton claims. Despite whatever you personally believe, I feel I take a far more reasoned and cautious approach to evaluating new material than you and your buddies, who will throw caution to the wind if a new claim of X makes the PLAN look "better" in your eyes, whatever better means to you, regardless of previous evidence or common sense.
