071 LPD thread

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Shall we do a dimension comparison between this 2 ships to get some comfirmation? But I agree 071 is near San Antonio LPD spec.

LHD will be the way to go for PLAN.

Using wikipedia, 071 is slightly longer, but san antonio has slightly greater beam.

It certainly isn't impossible for 071 to weigh 2-3k ton more than san antonio -- from the same anecdote from the sailor, apparently 071 can hold 4 helicopters in its hangar (which is possibly slightly larger than SA), and we know the well deck of 071 which can hold LCAC is larger than SA as well, as it can hold 4 to SA's 2. Further, while both have similar ciws, 4 gun ciws vs 2 missile ciws, 071's gun armament is arguably more capable (1 76mm vs 2 30mm) and it is equipped with its multi purpose rocket/chaff/flare launchers as well.

Either way, a 28k ton full displacement is not impossible and seems a little bit more realistic than the 19-20k tons we've been getting over the last few years, given both 071 and SA do seem to have such similar dimensions.

 

[Maggern]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

Using wikipedia, 071 is slightly longer, but san antonio has slightly greater beam.

It certainly isn't impossible for 071 to weigh 2-3k ton more than san antonio -- from the same anecdote from the sailor, apparently 071 can hold 4 helicopters in its hangar (which is possibly slightly larger than SA), and we know the well deck of 071 which can hold LCAC is larger than SA as well, as it can hold 4 to SA's 2. Further, while both have similar ciws, 4 gun ciws vs 2 missile ciws, 071's gun armament is arguably more capable (1 76mm vs 2 30mm) and it is equipped with its multi purpose rocket/chaff/flare launchers as well.

Either way, a 28k ton full displacement is not impossible and seems a little bit more realistic than the 19-20k tons we've been getting over the last few years, given both 071 and SA do seem to have such similar dimensions.

How big is Chinese LCAC comapred to American? It would jeopardize the whole reasoning if they were dissimilar. Though considering a member of your stature, I'm sure you know what you're doing

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

How big is Chinese LCAC comapred to American? It would jeopardize the whole reasoning if they were dissimilar. Though considering a member of your stature, I'm sure you know what you're doing

There was a scan of a magazine comparing PLA LCAC 3320 and US LCAC a little while back -- 3320 is actually slightly larger if memory serves (length wise), but has slightly less carrying capacity.

 

[MwRYum]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

There was a scan of a magazine comparing PLA LCAC 3320 and US LCAC a little while back -- 3320 is actually slightly larger if memory serves (length wise), but has slightly less carrying capacity.

Noticeably longer and a bit wider, but due to the bulkiness of the powerplants the deck space is narrower, at least one lane less then the US LCAC, thus the inferior carrying capacity.

 

[Mysterre]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

It certainly isn't impossible for 071 to weigh 2-3k ton more than san antonio -- from the same anecdote from the sailor, apparently 071 can hold 4 helicopters in its hangar (which is possibly slightly larger than SA), and we know the well deck of 071 which can hold LCAC is larger than SA as well, as it can hold 4 to SA's 2. Further, while both have similar ciws, 4 gun ciws vs 2 missile ciws, 071's gun armament is arguably more capable (1 76mm vs 2 30mm) and it is equipped with its multi purpose rocket/chaff/flare launchers as well.

None of the things you listed has any bearing on increasing the displacement of the 071 vis a vis the SA. More room for helos or ACV's just means less room for other things, which actually would mean LESS displacement overall. What 4 ACV's means to me is that the PLAN has chosen rapid deployment of limited forces over sustained deployment of a larger force. What it could also mean is that since the carrying capacity of the PLAN ACV is somewhere between 2/3 to 1/3 that of the LCAC, the PLAN may feel it needs more ACV's to deploy the same number of vehicles at the same time. It certainly does NOT suggest any greater displacement. Perceived potency of armament choices also have nothing at all to do with a ship's displacement. 19-20,000 tons sounds about right.

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

None of the things you listed has any bearing on increasing the displacement of the 071 vis a vis the SA. More room for helos or ACV's just means less room for other things, which actually would mean LESS displacement overall.

I suppose that depends on whether the embarked vehicles are altogether heavier or lighter than the mass of the volume used elsewhere in SA. That is to say, the smaller helo space or well deck could mean greater space for other amenities or C2 centres or whatever aboard SA, giving it similar or greater "empty" displacement, but if 071 has more space for embarked vehicles whether it be helicopters or LCACs or AFVs, it may end up weighing more carrying its full capacity.

What 4 ACV's means to me is that the PLAN has chosen rapid deployment of limited forces over sustained deployment of a larger force. What it could also mean is that since the carrying capacity of the PLAN ACV is somewhere between 2/3 to 1/3 that of the LCAC, the PLAN may feel it needs more ACV's to deploy the same number of vehicles at the same time. It certainly does NOT suggest any greater displacement. Perceived potency of armament choices also have nothing at all to do with a ship's displacement. 19-20,000 tons sounds about right.

The 071 has a longer, "flat" well deck than san antonio, which can be used for carrying AFVs and other vehicles as well.
And regardless of the effective payload of the LCACs of both countries, if both LCACs weigh the same overall fully loaded and 071 carries 4, SA carries 2 max, it does suggest greater displacement in that dimension.

I wasn't talking about potency per se, I was talking about number and... "sophistication", which translates into mass. For instance, how does 4 AK630s and the associated electronics to back it up weigh compared with 2 RAM? How about 2 30mm bushmasters vs a 76mm gun? How much do 071's four multirole MLRS weigh?

We can quibble over the dimensions of 071 but it's generally accepted it is damn near identical in size to san antonio (you can do your own comparison on GE if you so desire, but that is where these numbers usually come from in the first place). The fact that the former can have a full displacement so much smaller (19 or 20k vs 25k) while being similar size, and having greater carrying capacity, does not quite make sense.

I see no reason why 071 cannot displace more than SA, and I believe I see a few ways it could potentially weigh more (embarked vehicle capacity, heavier armament etc). So I will believe the anecdote from the PLAN sailor at this point.


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the same poster made the claim that 071 can carry 64 "amphibious tanks" which I assume to be type 63A, or more likely, ZBD05 class AAVs. I assume it includes the forward vehicle hall. Anyway, all these are originally posted by hmmvw over on CDF first, so kudos to him.

 

[Mysterre]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

I suppose that depends on whether the embarked vehicles are altogether heavier or lighter than the mass of the volume used elsewhere in SA. That is to say, the smaller helo space or well deck could mean greater space for other amenities or C2 centres or whatever aboard SA, giving it similar or greater "empty" displacement, but if 071 has more space for embarked vehicles whether it be helicopters or LCACs or AFVs, it may end up weighing more carrying its full capacity.

IMO the chance of the 071 having more space for vehicles is just about zero. It has more space for ACV's, that's for sure, but you also seem to be claiming that there is more space for more ACV's AND more space for more vehicles. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too, but not this time.

And regardless of the effective payload of the LCACs of both countries, if both LCACs weigh the same overall fully loaded and 071 carries 4, SA carries 2 max, it does suggest greater displacement in that dimension.

Not really, no. It just means the well deck of the 071 is larger than that of the SA. It also means the vhicle carrying capacity of the 071 is correspondingless less than that of the SA. Can the weight of a single PLAN ACV make up for all the bulkhead and vehicles that it replaced? Nope.

I wasn't talking about potency per se, I was talking about number and... "sophistication", which translates into mass. For instance, how does 4 AK630s and the associated electronics to back it up weigh compared with 2 RAM? How about 2 30mm bushmasters vs a 76mm gun? How much do 071's four multirole MLRS weigh?

Maybe a few dozen tons all told. This magnitude of displacement is essentially meaningless when compared to a ship of 20,000 tons.

We can quibble over the dimensions of 071 but it's generally accepted it is damn near identical in size to san antonio (you can do your own comparison on GE if you so desire, but that is where these numbers usually come from in the first place). The fact that the former can have a full displacement so much smaller (19 or 20k vs 25k) while being similar size, and having greater carrying capacity, does not quite make sense.

There is no need to quibble. It's easy. Just take a look at photos of the 071 compared to the SA and you will solve this inscrutable mystery in the time it takes for the rays of light from your screen to reach your eyes.

I will believe the anecdote from the PLAN sailor at this point.

Well of course you will.

 

[Blitzo]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

IMO the chance of the 071 having more space for vehicles is just about zero. It has more space for ACV's, that's for sure, but you also seem to be claiming that there is more space for more ACV's AND more space for more vehicles. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too, but not this time.

Well we know 071 has a much greater well deck, but i'll address that part about space for vehicles down below.

Not really, no. It just means the well deck of the 071 is larger than that of the SA. It also means the vhicle carrying capacity of the 071 is correspondingless less than that of the SA. Can the weight of a single PLAN ACV make up for all the bulkhead and vehicles that it replaced? Nope.

I've considered that, and 071 and SA have different well deck/vehicle space configurations. Going from cutaways of both ship classes...:
071 has a well deck which can hold twice the number of LCACs as SA (note 3320 class LCACs are larger than USN LCAC as well), and it also has a forward vehicle hall, both of which only have one level.
SA has a well deck that can hold two LCACs and beyond that it has a vehicle hall with a number of "floors", so it has more volume for vehicles. But can the various levels hold vehicles greater than a truck, a humvee, an AAV, an MBT? Because we know 071's well deck can hold fully packed rows of ZBD05s, and the vehicle hall can support MBTs.

Maybe a few dozen tons all told. This magnitude of displacement is essentially meaningless when compared to a ship of 20,000 tons.

A few dozen here, a few dozen there, they add up.

There is no need to quibble. It's easy. Just take a look at photos of the 071 compared to the SA and you will solve this inscrutable mystery in the time it takes for the rays of light from your screen to reach your eyes.

Damn, that's witty.

Well I've looked. I suppose there is no need to quibble. So we agree both are very similar in size?


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I think as always we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mysterre]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

I've considered that, and 071 and SA have different well deck/vehicle space configurations. Going from cutaways of both ship classes...:
071 has a well deck which can hold twice the number of LCACs as SA (note 3320 class LCACs are larger than USN LCAC as well), and it also has a forward vehicle hall, both of which only have one level.
SA has a well deck that can hold two LCACs and beyond that it has a vehicle hall with a number of "floors", so it has more volume for vehicles. But can the various levels hold vehicles greater than a truck, a humvee, an AAV, an MBT? Because we know 071's well deck can hold fully packed rows of ZBD05s, and the vehicle hall can support MBTs.

Cutaways don't really mean much of anything. The bottom line is that similar-sized hulls are going to have similar-sized volumes. More volume devoted to the well deck means less volume devoted to the vehicle decks. This is why you can't have your cake and eat it too.

A few dozen here, a few dozen there, they add up.

I said a few dozen "all told", and that's the point. They're not adding up.

Well I've looked. I suppose there is no need to quibble. So we agree both are very similar in size?

We will only agree when you look closer. The SA displaces more; the difference is obvious when Google Earth is not the basis of comparison.

 

[hmmwv]

re: PLAN Type 071 LPD & its Landing Craft

19-20,000 tons sounds about right.

According to official PLAN announcement during the 2009 international ship parade 998 Kunlunsha has a standard displacement of 18,500t. Recent official news reported 999 Jinggangshan has a standard displacement of over 19,000t. Fill it with full load of fuel/water, four Z8s, four hovercrafts, trucks, jeeps, 30 armored vehicle, and all the ammos I think it's entirely possible that the full displacement is greater than SA. Having said that comparing full displacement is pretty pointless since you can rarely fill the ship with that much cargo. It can be achieved by packing the well deck with MREs for humanitarian relief missions, but in a realistic amphibious landing the total carrying capacity is limited by well deck space (when hovercrafts are in you will lose half the ZBD05 carrying capacity) and deck load limits (i.e. top vehicle deck is for wheeled vehicles only).