055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[FarkTypeSoldier]

Totoro, FYI, the aft VLS launchers for the Arliegh Burke Flight IIA destroyers (the ones with the helo hanger) are located precisely as follows in relation to the hangers.

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Over half of the VLS cells are located between the two hangers, with the first three rows forward being the only ones in the aft VLS matrix not having helo hanger on either side of them. Thought you might like this pic.

An excellent piece of work...

 

[Blitzo]

@ totoro, I think you could turn the aft cells 90 degrees one way to the same orientation as the bow. Also, move the aft cells forward a little, move HQ-10 over the helicopter hangar itself (no deck penetration required)

Also, once all that's done, the bow and aft both like like you can squeeze a row of 3 8 cell modules, for a total of two
9 x 8 cell modules. 144 total.

That said, I'm still expecting a more modest 2 x 64 cell aft and bow. The ciws could be placed more like Burke/052C/D too without much modification.
The superstructure/funnel/hangar design being a single structure is good though.



The overall dimensions also seem a bit small for a 12,000 ton ship. Sejong displaces 10k+ ton max and it had a 0.4 greater beam and greater overall length too

 

[no_name]

Also it seems there is no reason why you can't have two gun CIWS at the bow one to each side, not like it will add much weight and the space is available and unused anyway. Same with the missile CIWS to the rear.

Maybe one single 30mm autocannon to port and starboard side each?

 

[Jeff Head]

Some images of a model I built. It's quite rough but the concept should be visible.

Twin helicopter hangar. Whole rear end is really modelled after Burke class. Complete with VLS bay between the hangars.

Since the new class will probably need 4 turbines, i acted accordingly. I really used Burke as a starting point. But with the first intake/exhaust stack i chose to go the Zumwalt way and enclosed the whole stack inside a large structure that also houses various radars and other sensors.

To keep the top weight in check, the second smokestack is kept low and pretty conventional.

Here's a mod to your concept. Would have 128 VLS Cells, 1x Type 1130 CIWS forward, 1 x FN-3000L 24 Cell on the aft end of the hanger, Two Helo Hanger, and probably close to 12,000 tons. She's a bit longer and wider than yours to accommodate for the weight, but is drawn to the same scale as yours so you can compare.

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[Blitzo]

Also it seems there is no reason why you can't have two gun CIWS at the bow one to each side, not like it will add much weight and the space is available and unused anyway. Same with the missile CIWS to the rear.

Maybe one single 30mm autocannon to port and starboard side each?

Tbh I think such small mounts such as 30mm guns do not need to be fully represented on a CG for a ship as large as this.

What I'll be interested in is whether the eventual ciws (type 1130/HQ-10) slots will be designed to be replaced with SSLs later on.

Here's a mod to your concept. Would have 128 VLS Cells, 1x Type 1130 CIWS forward, 1 x FN-3000L 24 Cell on the aft end of the hanger, Two Helo Hanger, and probably close to 12,000 tons. She's a bit longer and wider than yours to accommodate for the weight, but is drawn to the same scale as yours so you can compare.

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That's basically what I envisioned, what a great drawing!
Resembles a slightly smaller, conventionally flared hull zumwalt, or even some of the original concepts for CG(X), although I am not too optimistic for such a stealthy, integrated island-smokestack-hangar configuration. Hopefully an integrated mast will be present, anything substantial beyond that, who knows.

What programme did you use, Jeff?



This would be an interesting project to proposition to the guys over on shipbucket.

 

[Totoro]

The image Jeff posted is an excellent source of information. Finally i know where precisely the engine rooms are. A question, though: which is intake and which is exhaust? the twin shafts towards the top are intake? and the single shaft (per turbine pair) is exhaust? Or is it the other way around? Also, what is that most forward engine room for? It looks just as large as the one for the front turbine pair. Or are the front pair of turbines positioned longitudinally and aft pair of turbines are positioned in a parallel manner, so one turbine in the drawing isn't really even visible?

It's good to see that curvature of those shafts is a normal thing. I was worried in my design that the smokestack is a bit too close to the bow. But now, seeing this, i think my design could pass off as workable.

I didn't really model my design after a 12000 ton ship. That's too easy, to put in enough stuff on such a large hull. That's why i am sticking with 052 length on a wider hull, or british type 45 as a basis for the hull. Call it 05X if you will.

I am always against using an idea that i havent seen used on a real world ship. That's why i didn't go with more cells in the back and that's why i stuck to in between hangars arrangement. While 052d does feature perpendicular placement of its aft vls bay, that's only a 8,5 m wide structure. My design would require 12,5 meter wide structure. That being said, my design is 3-4 meters wider so it might be possible. But I also need space for RHIBs after the helo hangars plus some decently sized corridors, too.

I'm thinking two meters of width taken up by superstructure slopes, 5 meters by two rhibs. Another 2-3 meters by corridors. That's some 10 meters. And i'm left with 11 meters for a 12,5 meter wide vls bay. Even if i made mistakes certain systems don't take up as much space, it still looks too close for comfort and i don't want to guesstimate that much.

Besides, my design has 96 LARGE (larger than mk41) cells on a hull whose displacement isn't bigger than Burke's. I'd call that pushing it enough.

Some of Jeff's changes to my design wouldn't work on a 21 meter wide ship. Maybe if 055 is 23 meters wide it'd be fine. But I tried to orient aft vls cells that way and they're too wide. I need 8,5 meters of width that way. Which then doesn't leave me enough space for the hangars which are modelled after burke or sh60.

But lets all keep in mind that 21 meters is already a VERY wide warship. 23 meters would be literally unheard of in modern day, unless one goes for a zumwalt (at least slava) class monstrosity of a warship.

 

[Blitzo]

I didn't really model my design after a 12000 ton ship. That's too easy, to put in enough stuff on such a large hull. That's why i am sticking with 052 length on a wider hull, or british type 45 as a basis for the hull. Call it 05X if you will.

But lets all keep in mind that 21 meters is already a VERY wide warship. 23 meters would be literally unheard of in modern day, unless one goes for a zumwalt (at least slava) class monstrosity of a warship.

96 cells for a burke sized ship is certainly viable, but then again we are talking about 055 here, which is commonly associated with the oft repeated 12,000 ton number.
Also, newer warships will include many extra features that aren't VLS and ciws, such as electronics, modular/open spaces for growth, improved automation, or even simply greater living facilities, which will all add to a ship's displacement. In that sense, I think 128 cells for a 12,000 ship is quite reasonable.

23m beam, 170 m length sounds about right for such a ship, I think, considering zumwalt is 24.6m x 180m, and slava is 20.1m x 186.4m, and the tendency for modern naval design to tend towards a greater beam/length ratio.

I am always against using an idea that i havent seen used on a real world ship. That's why i didn't go with more cells in the back and that's why i stuck to in between hangars arrangement. While 052d does feature perpendicular placement of its aft vls bay, that's only a 8,5 m wide structure. My design would require 12,5 meter wide structure. That being said, my design is 3-4 meters wider so it might be possible. But I also need space for RHIBs after the helo hangars plus some decently sized corridors, too.

tico features 2 x 64 cells arranged in a way identical to Jeff's 055 cell arrangement (that is to say, perpendicularly for both aft and bow).

I also think it would be easier for the aft VLS to simply not infringe on the helo hangars at all, which shouldn't be a particularly demanding engineering challenge I think. The VLS placement between hangars like on burke is more due to a necessity of space, and while this may be necessary on a 9000 ton ship, there should be more than enough real estate on a 12,000 ton son.

 

[no_name]

Found a patent that shows something similar to the hot launch canister design:

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[Totoro]

So is the long term plan for PLAN to operate a four tier fleet?

half a dozen 12.000 ton 055 ships
dozen or two 10.000 ton 052c/d successors
a few dozen 4000 - 4500 ton 054/successor ships
several dozen 1200-1500 ton 056 ships?

I must say i am still perplexed as to why two such close classes, then 10k ton and 12k ton ships. I'd get rid of one or the other.

OR maybe 052c/d class wont really even have a succcessor with a new hull. Or if it will, it will be more akin to a european 6-7 thosuand ton frigate? 145m hull, 18 meter width, specialized for asw/asuw without long range aaw capability. But then what are 4000 ton frigates going to be for?

I'd really like to see some proper source on the 12.000 ton claim that seems to be taken for granted around these parts. If there's no proper source but it came from some big shrimp, which one said it?

 

[Blitzo]

all the "fleet prediction" tables of the last year or more have given 12k tons, but I'm not sure where the number was originally sourced from. Certainly we should still take it with a "pinch of salt" but it has hung around long enough, it should be a number to at least consider. At the very least it is better tha pulling out an arbitrary 10k ton figure for which we have not even any rumours to suggest

I see a future fleet in four tiers like you:

Half dozen 12k 055s
Over a dozen 7000-8000 ton 052C/Ds and their successor
Two dozen to three dozen 4000-5000 ton 054As and ther successor
Four dozen (?) 056s of various subtypes