055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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kwaigonegin

Colonel
A rather nice picture of zumwalt compared to a flight i burke. The size difference is quite obvious. Where might 055 sit between them?

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Here's a few decent drawings of what 055 may look like, compared with 052C. Clearly it features the 128 cells, 130mm gun, 4 x QC280s we've all talked about, but it doesn't look like it displaces 12,000 tons, more of a sejong type 10,000 tons.

2ueny14.jpg

nmbytz.jpg

looks like it. If the drawings are accurately scale than it looks to be more 9-10K tons. No way it would displace 12K or anywhere close to it. It would be very similar to Burke Flt III. The hull looks to relatively similar (aside from the stern and a tad wider) or at least belong to the same 'family' of hulls as the 052 series.

I think for it to be in the 12K range the general hull design itself would have be much different than what you see in the drawings. I don't think a ship would be very seaworthy if you tag on an additional 3 or 4,000 tons of weight to a hull designed for 8K even if it floats ;)
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I'd just like to know the role of 055. Is it to be A) a multipurpose ship? B) Is to be sort of an arsenal ship? C) Is it to be a niche role attack ship, like Slava? D) Is it to serve as amphibious assault fire support ship?

If it is B, C or D then several ships, at most 8-10 in case of C, seem enough for future PLAN's need. If it is to be A) then sky's the limit. Each task force may then benefit from at least one. Meanign if one has 3-4 carriers and 3-4 more amphibious task forces and if one wants two such cruisers per task force we're already looking at 12-16 vessels.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I'd just like to know the role of 055. Is it to be A) a multipurpose ship? B) Is to be sort of an arsenal ship? C) Is it to be a niche role attack ship, like Slava? D) Is it to serve as amphibious assault fire support ship?

If it is B, C or D then several ships, at most 8-10 in case of C, seem enough for future PLAN's need. If it is to be A) then sky's the limit. Each task force may then benefit from at least one. Meanign if one has 3-4 carriers and 3-4 more amphibious task forces and if one wants two such cruisers per task force we're already looking at 12-16 vessels.

Using your classification, I'd imagine zumwalt is C and D combined, with its two AGS, and its high VLS complement of tomahawks.

055 as we hear it is definitely an A, not particularly emphasizing any unique weapons system over another.

In terms of numbers of 055s, we need to know whether they will replace DDG numbers in any way or form, or will they "only" add on another layer of the PLAN altogether (therefore 055 will be an example of "expansion" for the PLAN rather than modernization). If the latter, 055's production run (including its eventual successor) may well be quite high, considering just how many pre 052C/D DDGs there will be to replace in the years to come, and how many CGs the PLAN will want for each DDG flotilla.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
I'd rate Zumwalt as pure D. Its tomahwaks are for land strike only, plus there's bound to be at least8-16 cells taken by ESSM, leaving a decent but not huge number of tomahawks.

I meant C as a pure surface ship warrior, like Slava. But Slava's existance is closely linked to huge, 10 ton antiship missiles. PLAN doesn't seem to be going in that direction so i don't think we'll see 055 (or any other class) go into that direction. With aircraft carriers being the main force strike force outside the first island chain, there's no need for such a dedicated class.

D would be a little useful to PLAN if Taiwan wasn't so close to mainland. But since it is, i don't see such a ship being built. As for far away country assault support - china doesnt seem to be even close to that stage, where it needs such support. Heck, even the US more or less went without it, leaving only a token capability. AC carriers can take care of that job.

B is possible in theory but no one really made such a ship. I guess, of course, big ships like Tico and KDXIII are already closest to such a role with their many VLS cells. But for a dedicated arsenal ship i'd really go with submarine, not a surface ship.

While leaves us A as the most likely purpose, we agree on that. But if 055 is a true multipurpose ship then there's no sense in making a whole new class and then building just several ships. Then we'll probably see a lot of those ships, probably in numbers comparable to Tico fleet in the 1990s.

I guess then the current destroyer fleet will in the future get split into heavy ship and medium ship. 15-20 055 and 15-20 052d or successor.

And if the next 7000 ton ship gets a more multirole mission pack, then i see it even partially replacing the frigates. So instead of 40 something frigates, some future PLAN fleet in 20 years time may have somethiung like 30 frigates, 25-30 multipurpose destroyers and 15-20 cruisers which could then take the brunt of AAW role, since equipment for that - huge radars, tall masts, lots of missiles are best suited for the biggest ship in the fleet.

Then perhaps the 7000 ton multipurpose destroyer will be more oriented towards asw and land attack (something like british type 26). If that happens, then 052d could be labeled as a stop gap class, until 055 is ready.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I'd rate Zumwalt as pure D. Its tomahwaks are for land strike only, plus there's bound to be at least8-16 cells taken by ESSM, leaving a decent but not huge number of tomahawks.
You can rate it however you want. But that does not mean that the rating is necessarily correct.

The Zumwalts can be (and will be) outfitted with the ship attack version of the tactical tomohawk for anti-surface, war at sea duties, in addition, I expect at some point thirr long range 155mm munitions will be auigmented with an anti-ship version.

The Zumwalts can be and will be loaded with SM-3 anti-air missiles for long range and area anti-air coverage in any major task force they are a part of. Of its 80 cells, I would expect that 12 cells would be ESSM (that's 48 very effective short to medium range anti-air missiles) and probably 36 cells for SM-3 for long range anti-air, which leaves 32 VLS for tomohawks of various types.

The Zumwalts will have one of the most sophistiacted ASW sonar/sensor suites available as well as ASW helicopters to prosecute contacts at distance.

To presume that the Zumwalts are a purely land attack vessel and nothing more, is a serious underestimation of their capabilities that the professional naval planners in the PLAN, the Russians, and others will not make.

Those vessels will be very effective and powerful multi-role combatants. With very capable land attack, fire support, war at sea, ASW, and anti-air capabilities that can and will be exploited wherever they are in use.

I meant C as a pure surface ship warrior, like Slava. But Slava's existance is closely linked to huge, 10 ton antiship missiles. PLAN doesn't seem to be going in that direction so i don't think we'll see 055 (or any other class) go into that direction. With aircraft carriers being the main force strike force outside the first island chain, there's no need for such a dedicated class.
Again, the Slava class has a very serious anti-air capability and is meant to perform very effectively in that role, along with its anti-shipping capability, in any task force that they accompany.

Although not as strong in terms of its own onboard sensors as a Zumwalt, it still has very credible onboard ASW sensors, a very strong onboard ASW weapons fit, and the helicopter to prosecute contacts at range. With their twin 130mm gun, they can provide effective fire support too. Again, the Slava is also a muilt-role vessel which any planner will have to take into account when preparing for one of them.

B is possible in theory but no one really made such a ship. I guess, of course, big ships like Tico and KDXIII are already closest to such a role with their many VLS cells. But for a dedicated arsenal ship i'd really go with submarine, not a surface ship.
The US regularly considers such vessels and to date has not chosen a surface ship to act as such. An arsenal ship was never intended to be purely surface or land attack. Their many VLS cells are meant to also be able to perform in the area anti-air coverage as well.

The US is now again considering such a vessel in the LPD II designs being considered as a follow-on to the San Antonio class where one of the variants would in fact represent an arsenal ship. We'll see how that goes and if the Navy plans to acquie any. With the current economic situation, IMHO, it is doubtful, though they would be vewry decent vessels and could work as a very effective center piece to any major task force because they are big enough to put the largest, most effective dual band radars on.

While leaves us A as the most likely purpose, we agree on that. But if 055 is a true multipurpose ship then there's no sense in making a whole new class and then building just several ships.
I agree that the Type 055, if it is built, will definitely be a multi-role vessel. But as I have shown with the Zumwalt, you can have a very effective multi-role vessel, even if you build them in relative small numbers.

My own personal feeling is that the PLAN is going to serial build a number of Type 52D vessel before going on to a larger vessel in any case.

The Type 052D is going to represnt a very strong multi-role escort vessel for the PLAN carriers and large amphibious assault vessels, as well as a very effective general addition to each DDG flotilla. They will need enough of them to serve those flotilla needs for all three fleets and still have enough to meet the escort needs as required with combined fleet operations and/or woith the carrier(s).

I expect the Type 055, if it is built, to end up being used as the centerpiece for those types of task forces. The lead escort, if you will, helping coordinate and provide strength in depth to such task forces.

I also expect them to operate as task force leaders for larger SAGs as required.

But, the Type 052D I expect will also be able to fill this role pretty effectively until such time as the PLAN decides they need more. That's when we will see the Type 055 come along. Who knows, perhaps they have already made that decision, but I expect not yet. They need to get the Type 052D integrated with its new weapons and systems first IMHO.

But all of that is just my opinion on the matter.
 
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shen

Senior Member
You are not seeing the forest for the tree. Clearly all warships have some multirole function, the point is what is a particular class design optimized for.
For example if I say M-18 Hellcat was designed to kill tanks, you can counter by saying, no, Hellcat can also fire HE shell to support infantry, and it also have anti-air capability because of the .50 MG, and its got armor so Hellcat can also shield infantry from enemy rifle fire, therefor Hellcat is a multirole escort vehicle. Um yeah, but you missed the point.

You can rate it however you want. But that does not mean that the rating is necessarily correct.

The Zumwalts can be (and will be) outfitted with the ship attack version of the tactical tomohawk for anti-surface, war at sea duties, in addition, I expect at some point thier long range 155mm munitions will be auigmented with an anti-ship version.

The Zumwalts can be and will be loaded with SM-3 anti-air missiles for long range and area anti-air coverage in any major task force they are a part of.

The Zumwalts will have one of the most sophistiacted ASW sonar/sensor suites available as well as ASW helicopters to prosecute contacts at distance.

To presume that the Zumwalts are a purely land attack vessel and nothing more, is a serious underestimation of their capabilities that the professional naval planners in the PLAN, the Russians, and others will not make.

Those vessels will be very effective and powerful multi-role combatants. With very capable land attack, fire support, war at sea, ASW, and anti-air capabilities that can and will be exploited wherever they are in use.

Again, the Slava class has a very serious anti-air capability and is meant to perform very effectively in that role, along with its anti-shipping capability, in any task force that they accompany. Although not as strong in terms of its own on-board sensors, it still has very credible onboard ASW sensors, a very strong onboard ASW weapons fit, and the helicopter to prosecute contacts at range. With their twin 130mm gun, they can provide effective fire support too. Again, the Slava is also a muilt-role vessel which any planner will have to take into account when preparing for one of them.

.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
This is getting dangeorously close to off topic so i hope we can drop it soon but zumwalt is certainly not an omnipurpose ship. Yes, it is huge enough that it has enough room for various systems, so it has powerful asw suite but it is very clear what is its main role. It is built around the two large guns. If it didnt have those, it'd have not 80 but 160 VLS cells, to be used for various purposes. It doesn't have them. It has guns. And those guns will not be used in antishipping role anytime soon. A completely different seeker will be needed for that which may or may not come in 20 or 30 years. Not only do they lack proper guidance for such a role, they're lacking in range, destructive power and stealthiness compared to other means of attack.

To my knowledge, tactical tomahawk STILL didnt get the funding for the antishipping module. So right now and into near future, it is still for fixed targets only. Multimission tomahawk's funding is on hold as is its future.

While Zumwalt may be carrying sm-3, sm-6 and what not, its role is certainly not of long range air defense because A) there's other assets for that, b) why ruin such a great RCS with emitting radar and most importantly c) because the volume search radar has been cut from that project. Zumwalts will carry only a set of X band radars for targeting and some sort of surveillance, but not nearly as good as a proper S band or L band volume search radars would offer.

I would also kindly suggest the continuation of this zumwalt topic on another thread. My comments on zumwalt served as means of comparison to 055, there is no point of discussing zumwalt on its own in this thread. And this is already the second post doing so.

Different people have different ways of defining what makes a multirole ship. Lets leave it at that.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
A possible timeline for the PLAN:

153621k2wdg12d6859jdqw.jpg

Six Type 052C total
Three 052D
16 more Type 052D by 2016
One Type 055 by 2014
15 more DDG in future
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
This is getting dangeorously close to off topic so i hope we can drop it soon but zumwalt is certainly not an omnipurpose ship.
Omni-purpose? That's a new term on me, and one I did not use or imply. It is however going to be a very effective multi-purpose vessel.

Yes, it is huge enough that it has enough room for various systems, so it has powerful asw suite but it is very clear what is its main role. It is built around the two large guns. If it didnt have those, it'd have not 80 but 160 VLS cells, to be used for various purposes. It doesn't have them. It has guns. And those guns will not be used in antishipping role anytime soon. A completely different seeker will be needed for that which may or may not come in 20 or 30 years. Not only do they lack proper guidance for such a role, they're lacking in range, destructive power and stealthiness compared to other means of attack.
No, it is not built around just the guns. It is built around all of the things we have been discussing, and purposely so.

The PVLS is new technology and a very good thing that allows the vessel to be muti-role in its missile loadout, and that was a very specific design consideration.

The AGS is there, but will ultimately be replaced by the Railguns already being tested and the already being developed different types of munitions...and that will not be 20-30 years. Also, anti-gun naval fire does not require the types of technological leaps you are implying. 1st, if necessary dumb HE warheads can be fired for effect at moving naval vessels and be able to hit them and sink them using simple inertial guidance. 2nd and more importantly, the types of seeker heads and manueverability needed are already availale on other US munitions and could be applied to the naval gunfire munitions as well without any type of major development cycle. Do not think the AGS cannot be a anti-shipping weapon for 20-30 years. I promise you, I personally know for a fact that it is heading that way right now, and it will be there in the first half of the next decade at the latest.

The hanger and flight deck are huge...and for the reaosn I spoke of earlier. The sonar suite and the radars suite is also cutting edge technology and both are there for their purposes. Again, it is built around all of those things and like I said, it is a huge mistake to try and pigeon hole these vessels into a pure ground support/fire support vessel.

But, continuing to get cuircular in the discussion is not going to advance the dialog. Clearly, we feel differently and think differently about it and that is fine.
 
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