055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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luhai

Banned Idiot
So is the long term plan for PLAN to operate a four tier fleet?

half a dozen 12.000 ton 055 ships
dozen or two 10.000 ton 052c/d successors
a few dozen 4000 - 4500 ton 054/successor ships
several dozen 1200-1500 ton 056 ships?

I must say i am still perplexed as to why two such close classes, then 10k ton and 12k ton ships. I'd get rid of one or the other.

OR maybe 052c/d class wont really even have a succcessor with a new hull. Or if it will, it will be more akin to a european 6-7 thosuand ton frigate? 145m hull, 18 meter width, specialized for asw/asuw without long range aaw capability. But then what are 4000 ton frigates going to be for?

I'd really like to see some proper source on the 12.000 ton claim that seems to be taken for granted around these parts. If there's no proper source but it came from some big shrimp, which one said it?

It'll make much more sense if you break it into ocean going and coast fleets.

Ocean Going, operate in CVBG or ARGs
A few 60,000-80,000 ton CV/CVN
a few 30,000- 40,000 LHA/LHD/LPD
half a dozen 12.000 ton 055 ships
dozen or two 10.000 ton 052c/d successors
a few dozen 4000 - 4500 ton 054/successor ships will share coastal fleet
half a dozen SSNs

Coastal operate in SAR
a few dozen 4000 - 4500 ton 054/successor ships will share ocean fleet
several dozen 1200-1500 ton 056 ships
~70 200 ton type 022 missile boats
a few dozen SSKs
Other old second line ships
 

Totoro

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IF there is going to be a 12.000 ship, I'd delete the 052 class and 054 entirely. That, of course, just means stop their production and let them serve for as long as they can. But instead of them build and use a 6000 ton large frigate. Of course, the 12.000 ton ships would then need to be more numerous than half a dozen, probably in two dozen range within a few decades.

That way one'd have a three tier navy. Big battlegroups would have the biggest ships and the 6000 ton frigates. Other ocean going fleets would get just the 6000 ton frigates. Coastal roles would be fulfilled by 056 exclusively, for which it is more than equipped to do.

If there is going to be a 12.000 ship class it will be somewhat of a world's first. Yes, there've been many larger ships before. But let me put it into some context. After big ships of ww2 fell out of favour, biggest "modern" ship was Long Beach Cruiser. It had to be that big because AAW systems of the day were huge. Still, the class never went anywhere and only one ship was ever built. Us had some other pretty big ships, like the Virginia class cruiser, of some 10,500 tons basic displacement. But they didn't have a lot of them, and as the technology progressed, slightly smaller ships took its place, like Tico and Burke.

On the other side, USSR had a very specific fleet and very specific task. Their navy wasn't a true blue water navy in all regards, their navy was more of a heavy counterstrike fleet, hit and run fleet. To fight the NATO, they used colossaly huge missiles, and only way to house those, again, were some big ass ships. Hence Kirov and Slava. Slava was far from a multipurpose ship, it was a striker through and through. Not something China should model.

Kirov, again, was a flag waving exercise - lets build the biggest ship possible. Again, i dont think anyone sensible would hope for chinese equivalent of kirov. Even the russians won't be making a new kirov again.

We have zumwalt class, true. But again, it's a very specialized ship. Even before the whole class was more or less turned into a tech demonstrator class when they cut the funding for all but just three ships, the whole concept was geared towards one thing - ground support from the sea. Hence the two bigass cannons, a weapon system otherwise completely unnecesarry for a naval ship, as well as over the top stealth requirements, needed if ship is to have a chance of survival operating under 100 km away from enemy shores.

So is there a class in history of modern warships or even in future planning, that is to model the alleged 12.000 ton chinese warship? I don't think so. At least i can't think of a similar class. People are free to point it out to me.

Yes, there's the Korean KDXIII. Some sources say it's under 9000 ton basic displacement but with that size, it's got to be more, probably more around 10,500 tons.

That's really another issue with displacement. There doesn't seem to be a standard that people actually stick to when reporting displacement. Burke is oftentime cited as 10.000 ton ship while it can't possibly be compared to the larger kdxIII. It's not just the difference between basic and full displacement, there seems to be a myriad other factors.

All this was written in case 055 is a 12.000 ton basic displacement ship that may go over 14.000 tons when full. IF the chinese 12.000 ton ships ends up being really a 10.000 ton basic displacement ship which at times may reach 12.000 ton ful displacement, then it's all a bit different. It would *still* be the biggest modern warship built as a numerous class, though. Which goes back to my reasoning. Yes, there's been no mention of 055 being a 10.000 ton ship. But there's been almost no mention of 055 period. One lone rumor about 12000 tonnage, and that's it.

What's more likely? That it will turn to be true and china will build and operate the largest fleet of largest ships in modern naval history? Or that china will model its fleet after other navies with same or even bigger blue navy aspirations? We can see that 7000-8000 ton ships are quite enough as ocean going ships. There's plenty of such ships around in various blue water navies. There are some 9 and 10 thousand ton ships, too. That's perfectly plausible as well. But once we go over 10.000 tons we go into uncharted territory. And then Occam's razor comes into play.
 

Jeff Head

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If there is going to be a 12.000 ship class it will be somewhat of a world's first.

But let me put it into some context. After big ships of ww2 fell out of favour, biggest "modern" ship was Long Beach Cruiser.

To fight the NATO, they used colossaly huge missiles, and only way to house those, again, were some big ass ships. Hence Kirov and Slava. Slava was far from a multipurpose ship, it was a striker through and through. Not something China should model.

Kirov, again, was a flag waving exercise - lets build the biggest ship possible. Again, i dont think anyone sensible would hope for chinese equivalent of kirov. Even the russians won't be making a new kirov again.

We have zumwalt class, true. But again, it's a very specialized ship. Even before the whole class was more or less turned into a tech demonstrator class when they cut the funding for all but just three ships, the whole concept was geared towards one thing - ground support from the sea.

So is there a class in history of modern warships or even in future planning, that is to model the alleged 12.000 ton chinese warship? I don't think so. At least i can't think of a similar class. People are free to point it out to me.
It would not be a world first by any stretch or explanation. You yourself listed numerous examples that show it is not a world first.

You use the Long Beach as an example, of which only one was built, but then you discount, for various reasons the Slava Class at 12,500 tons of which three were built. the Kirov Class at 28,000 tons of which four were built, and now the Zumwalt Class at 15,000 tons of which three will be built.

Sorry you cannot have it both ways. You cannot point to the Long Beach of which one was built as an example to make your point, and then discount three separate classes comprising ten ships, all of which were larger than the Long Beach and one of which is a new build right now.

And BTW, the Zumwalt is far more than a technology demonstrator. If that were true they would build only one, but they are building three to ensure one or two are always available. And they are definitely multi-function. They will be able to do fire support for the marines, but they will also serve as long range AAW defense for ARGs, and they will have a very significant ASW capability.

Add to that the fact that of the four Kirovs three are undergoing 1 billion dollar renovations each to modernize them.

Remember, there were only four Iowa Class battleships built, and yet they served for almost 50 years.

So, large displacement surface combatants like Cruisers, Battle Cruisers, and very large destroyers (which ought to be classified as cruisers IMHO) are a precedent that has been very well documented and used since well before World War II and continues to be used and built to this day.

It would therefore not be unusual for the PLAN to decide to build a class of their own...and not at the expense of their other DDG or FFG builds. The Russians did not stop DDG or FFG production with the Slavas and Kirovs, and the US certainly did not stop DDG or FFG production with the introduction of its larger classes, including now the Zumwalt.

The issue is really timing and economics. The PLAN has the economics but I am not sure the timing is right at this point. I believe they will build numerous Type 052Ds first, and perhaps come forward with a larger cruiser in another five years or so.

But, if I am wrong, it certainly will not be the first time. Time will tell.
 

Blitzo

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@ Totoro

A fleet of 12,000 ton CGs and 6000 ton "FFGs" can work as well, but given the PLANs current fleet force it may be easier to go with a three tiered ocean going fleet instead of two.

A 12,000 ton surface combatant would indeed be somewhat of a world first, but that's not a good enough reason for suggest why we should be skeptical towards the 12,000 ton number beyond just normal wariness towards these kind of rumours.

LCS was arguably a first in the world kind of vessel, as was zumwalt, Burke, slava, when they first met water. Even type 45 is unique, in the sense it is so under armed for an 8000 ton destroyer. The fact that we've seen no 12,000 ton destroyers should be attributable to the fact that there hasn't been a navy with the requirements and missions of the PLAN until now.


I too would be skeptical if someone threw around 12k tons without a solid grounding, but that is the commonly quotes number. As to a single source, earlier in this thread sinosoldier posted a link to a thread whereupon the Henry K fellow makes some very specific claims which lines up with what we are hearing.

Also, the USN would've pursued a similar kind of ship to what 055 sounds like had the original CG(X) programme went through. They're settle with flight three burkes that will only slightly top 10,000 tons now. And of course three zumwalt are being built. What I'm saying is that there may be a case for the PLAN to build a good sized handful of premium upper echelon surface combatants to function as te main shield of a fleet or SAG.

I see 055 (from the 128, 12,000 ton specs) as a tico or sejong for the PLAN but with (probably/hopefully) integrated propulsion and modular capability to take on new weapons of the future (rail guns, lasers) which accounts for the increase in mass over tico/sejong. Actually a big criticism of Burke iii is its lack of capability for future growth once more VLS and AMDR are added. Basically I see 055 as what flight iii Burke should be. There was even a write up on information dissemination a while ago arguing how the USNs next surface combatant shouldn't be a flight iii Burke, but a 12,000 ton new hull design ship to have ample and safe room for everything the USN wants for their new Burke, reconditioned as a CG
 

Totoro

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I've got nothing against 12.000 ton ship (max displacement) in itself, as long as 052 successor class remains under 8000 tons max displacement. Otherwise it looks like lack of optimization fleet wise.

Then again, maybe we're talking of a true cruiser, 12.000 ton basic displacement, going over 14000 tons full. While I don't see much usefulness in such a ship, it could serve a niche purpose, like zumwalt or slava do. I just hope that in such case PLAN keeps the 055 fleet at very small numbers, for flag waving and puts the real surface fleet money in proper aaw/asw destroyers. for *everything* else there are aircraft carriers. Actually, even for flag waving there's nothing better than a carrier.
 

Blitzo

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If 12,000 tons isn't a real cruiser, then what is the 10,000 tons of tico and flight 3 Burke?

I also agree that 052D successor shouldn't be larger than 8000. But I think there is a niche (albeit small) for a super high end surface combatant to lead the bread and butter of 052D
 

tphuang

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12,000 ton sounds like a lot for PLAN destroyer. I'd be more in favour of something like KDX-iii (8500 ton standard, 11000 ton full) or Atago class. About 170 m length, 21 m in beam vs 155 m length, 17 m beam for 052C. Remember, the biggest issue for PLAN ships is propulsion. These KDX-III, Atago class already use 4 LM-2500 engines. I would imagine that Type 055 would use 4 QC-280. Anything larger, I think will affect the speed and maneuverability of the ship.

The other question is what kind of role will something like this play vs a new hull that's a little larger than 052D like Type 45? Do you need something > 10k for the purpose of BMD? Or maybe it's expected to be the capital ship in a long range mission (like in the case of Zumwalt).
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
I've got nothing against 12.000 ton ship (max displacement) in itself, as long as 052 successor class remains under 8000 tons max displacement. Otherwise it looks like lack of optimization fleet wise.

Then again, maybe we're talking of a true cruiser, 12.000 ton basic displacement, going over 14000 tons full. While I don't see much usefulness in such a ship, it could serve a niche purpose, like zumwalt or slava do. I just hope that in such case PLAN keeps the 055 fleet at very small numbers, for flag waving and puts the real surface fleet money in proper aaw/asw destroyers. for *everything* else there are aircraft carriers. Actually, even for flag waving there's nothing better than a carrier.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. I may be wrong but I seriously doubt the 055 (assuming 12K tons) was ever intended to be a replacement for the 052 class and certainly not the 052D! In the coming years you'll see 052Ds and 055s working together in terms of optimization.

At the end of the day a ship's designation is just that! designation. It'll do whatever her operators think best for them to do. They can call the 055 a corvette or a 056 a cruiser.. each will still do whatever it was designed to do!
People shouldn't get so hung up on the 'official' class designation.

All one has to do is look at the classification of JMSDF assets to know it's meaningless when it comes down to it.

Every once in a while something 'odd' will surface like the Kirov class which NATO designated as a 'battlecruiser' but her role for the most part was that of a 'regular' cruiser.

Personally I see a resurgence of CGN/nuclear powered cruiser (ala Long Beach, California class) etc sometime in the future. As nuclear reactors get smaller, more powerful and 'safer' to operate, there is no reason why operators like PLAN, USN etc won't built something like that again. Of course we're talking a couple decades in the future since as far as I know there is nothing like that on the drawing boards anywhere but I could be wrong.
 

Blitzo

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12,000 ton sounds like a lot for PLAN destroyer. I'd be more in favour of something like KDX-iii (8500 ton standard, 11000 ton full) or Atago class. About 170 m length, 21 m in beam vs 155 m length, 17 m beam for 052C. Remember, the biggest issue for PLAN ships is propulsion. These KDX-III, Atago class already use 4 LM-2500 engines. I would imagine that Type 055 would use 4 QC-280. Anything larger, I think will affect the speed and maneuverability of the ship.

Well Zumwalt is powered by two RR MT-30s, each of which produces 40MW max. Of course Zumwalt's running IPS and we don't know if 055 will use COGAG (conflicting accounts).
Still, 4 QC-280s gives you 4 x 28MW which should be enough for a 12,000 ton ship (as I believe Burkes and even sejong runs on an earlier version of LM2500).

And wouldn't an Atago sized ship, or even sejong sized ship (10k ton max), potentially overlap in capability with 052D and its successor?


The other question is what kind of role will something like this play vs a new hull that's a little larger than 052D like Type 45? Do you need something > 10k for the purpose of BMD? Or maybe it's expected to be the capital ship in a long range mission (like in the case of Zumwalt).

I'd think, or at least, hope that it's the latter mission. With the building timetables we've come across (taken well salted), the rate of 055 production definitely won't allow it to replace 052D. Supplement or complementing it may work well.



--

One of the reasons I like the 12,000 ton, 128 VLS, 055 rumour is how well the PLAN's main ocean going surface fleet will be divided. Future frigates and destroyers (starting with 052D) will probably all be centred around the new CCL VLS, and vary in size accordingly.
32 cell frigate (5000 t 054A successor)
64 cell destroyer (7000 t 052D, 8000 t successor)
128 cell large destroyer cruiser (12,000 t 055)

This gives PLAN a well spread and well rounded fleet of medium to high end capability without having to go full "young money" and expend billions on a full fleet of burkes and ticos, while retaining a practical number of hulls.

----


I also think nuclear power will play a bigger role for navies that can afford it, but only many decades into the future. Probably after flight iii burke has finished its run, when 052D's successor has finished, etc. Basically when DEW and rail guns become mature enough to be worth the risk, cost and controversy. And even then, CGNs will be a dime a dozen, only among the world's top tier navies.
 
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Blitzo

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A rather nice picture of zumwalt compared to a flight i burke. The size difference is quite obvious. Where might 055 sit between them?

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Here's a few decent drawings of what 055 may look like, compared with 052C. Clearly it features the 128 cells, 130mm gun, 4 x QC280s we've all talked about, but it doesn't look like it displaces 12,000 tons, more of a sejong type 10,000 tons.

2ueny14.jpg

nmbytz.jpg
 
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