Zheng He (1371-1433), the Chinese Muslim Admiral

Gaginang said:

i don't see, why the chinese didn't travelled and maped the world. after all they also the first to draw the equator. if they haven't traveled the world, how would they can divide the globe into spheres.

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If that's the case, why is the only person pushing that proposal a retired British sailor (note "sailor", not historian)? There were voyages, but even Chinese academics are refuting the idea that he went all around the world.

Hi Gaginang

have you forgotten the native indian mate, they are the true title owner of north america, anyone else came after them, still HAVN't pay rent.

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No I have not, but as they lacked the foresight to develop a land registry prior to Eric's landing, I have discounted them.

FuManChu

Verging slightly offtopic, briefly: in many respects Japan is the Asian Equivalent of Britain, Similar climate, similair size and obviously an Island. I am surprised we do not have any accounts of Japanese Maritime Adventureres and Exploreres and wondered if you could provide an explaination?

SampanViking said:

FuManChu

Verging slightly offtopic, briefly: in many respects Japan is the Asian Equivalent of Britain, Similar climate, similair size and obviously an Island. I am surprised we do not have any accounts of Japanese Maritime Adventureres and Exploreres and wondered if you could provide an explaination?

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Err, have I got a rep for being the Japanese history expert here? Happy to fill you in. :china:

Japan is one of those curiosities. In many respects it was a lot like the UK, but certain factors led things to develop differently there. If you look at the map of Europe (as it was), you'll find lots of countries and principalities bunched together. Whereas in Asia you didn't have that, at least in relation to where Japan was positioned (just Korea and China). Despite a few forays into Korea, Japan didn't get involved with the mainland like we did in Europe.

Japan was never a maritime nation like we were and never took a proper interest in naval technology (before the 19th century) - the ships used in Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea were slow and really platforms for their troops. The ships in the Far East as a whole didn't change much either - the junks the Chinese used against the Royal Navy weren't much different from those Zheng He might have used.

There was no rush for colonies in Asia that required ships to be built and technology to be advanced. Then you can factor in the many internal wars that meant Japanese leaders' attention was focused inwards quite frequently.

And then of course there was the Tokugawa isolationist policy that shut outside contact down in the 17th century. I wonder what would have happened to the history of the world if Japan had opened up in the 17th century to European technology, especially English ship-building methods!

the notion dat zheng he or his troops went around the world is questionable, i don't think they did, but other asian have, particular the chinese. these were chinese traders, these traders were made up some of the many navigators of zheng he expeditions. because they knew the way and the season best for travelling by sails. and the hiden danger of the ocean and peoples.



other traders dat constribute to this knowledge of the world were indian, persian, africa, arab, south east asian. while the west was the medieval by taking religioun religiously.

as for the japanese were they poor back then, and were enjoying life in their own way. i heard of japanese travelling with chinese trader down to south east asia.

SampanViking said:

Hi Gaginang



No I have not, but as they lacked the foresight to develop a land registry prior to Eric's landing, I have discounted them.

FuManChu

Verging slightly offtopic, briefly: in many respects Japan is the Asian Equivalent of Britain, Similar climate, similair size and obviously an Island. I am surprised we do not have any accounts of Japanese Maritime Adventureres and Exploreres and wondered if you could provide an explaination?

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Lack forsight?? to develop the land. what for. if you enjoying the land as it. would like to breath fresh air or rather would you like to breath fog of toxic fume.

Hi Gaginang

Please no double posts (I have merged them for you)

I did not say develop the land, I said a land registry: An offical account of whom owns what peice of land.

Hi Fumanchu

Err, have I got a rep for being the Japanese history expert here

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Well you seem to have an interest in Japan and that ususally is linked with knowledge.

Thanks for the info, it is genuinely surprising, I would have thought they would have been far more active maritimely.

SampanViking said:

Well you seem to have an interest in Japan and that ususally is linked with knowledge.

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I only wish people's interest in Japan was linked to a little more knowledge than it sometimes is - e.g. "Memoirs of a Geisha", samurai, Japanese schoolgirls, etc.

Thanks for the info, it is genuinely surprising, I would have thought they would have been far more active maritimely.

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I know, I was surprised myself. But that's the way it was. The reason Hideyoshi lost in Korea was mainly that at a criticial stage in the campaign the Koreans mustered a fleet of "Turtle Ships" (enclosed ships with a cannon in a big turtle mouth at the bow) and knocked seven-bells out of his supply convoys.

I was glad to be able to use some of my not-so-useful knowledge.

I thought Korea also got a great Admiral(Yi Sun-sin) , he is given the honorable credit for recreating the Turtle Ship and defeating the Japan invasion. Japan wanted to invade Korea, planning to sweep through the peninsula and use it as a forward base to conquer China.

According to the book, lord of the rim, zheng he fleet went to west for 5 reasons.

first was to make diplamatic contacts with foreign countries
second was to trade with other countries of advance knowledge
third was to defeat the chinese pirate in the malay panencula
fourth to replace one of the indonesian king and replace one with chinese influence
fifth was to find the suviving enermy that flet oversea.

in the custom of the oversea chinese trader zheng he was elevated to the statue the God of the Sea.

FuManChu said:

I only wish people's interest in Japan was linked to a little more knowledge than it sometimes is - e.g. "Memoirs of a Geisha", samurai, Japanese schoolgirls, etc.



I know, I was surprised myself. But that's the way it was. The reason Hideyoshi lost in Korea was mainly that at a criticial stage in the campaign the Koreans mustered a fleet of "Turtle Ships" (enclosed ships with a cannon in a big turtle mouth at the bow) and knocked seven-bells out of his supply convoys.

I was glad to be able to use some of my not-so-useful knowledge.

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Um no. The reason Japan lost to Korea was because China intervened.

The capabilities of the turtle ships were greatly exaggerated. Their only advantage was they were designed to make boarding difficult. Despite this, the Koreans did no more than make a petty annoyance of the Japanese Navy until far larger ships and capable ships from China arrived. They disrupted the Japanese supply lines but was far from able to defeat the entire Japanese fleet.

I think people tend to forget that despite destroying Zheng He's fleet, the Ming fleet was still by far the best in Asia and one of the best in the world. The reason Japan lost is because the Japanese Navy, in an unflattering but accurate term, stunk.

mindreader said:

The reason Japan lost is because the Japanese Navy, in an unflattering but accurate term, stunk.

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Which is what I said earlier on.