Zheng He (1371-1433), the Chinese Muslim Admiral

Spike said:

Actually I am not arguing that Zheng He's fleet made any amount of money, in fact that wasn't the point of his journeys (as I think you have already pointed out). You seemed to be implying that maritime trade between the Middle East and China was impossible, which is total horsesh-t. There appears to be some ambiguity on your part and misunderstanding on my part.

Please define what you mean by "direct" trade. If by "direct" you mean an Arab trader would load trade goods in the Middle East, carry those original goods to China and trade for Chinese goods, then carry those same Chinese goods all the way back to the Middle East, then no, "direct" trade didn't exist. Even the Portugese or Dutch traders who came later didn't practice "direct" trade. The reason being that greater profits could be made by trading for various local goods all along the route, exploiting price differentials between cities. Merchants could spend years travelling between Japanese, Chinese, South East Asian, Indian, and Middle Eastern ports. Even so, this doesn't mean that a an Arab, Indian, Chinese, or Javanese trader didn't eventually travel between China and India or the Middle East.

Where did you get your information about China being self-sufficient in spice? Although China did produce some quantities of spices (ie. corriander, cinnamon, various peppercorns, etc.) it didn't produce everything and certainly not in large enough quantities to feed all the expensive tastes in Guangzhou, Hangzhou, Suzhou, and Beijing. Anyways many of the spices produced in China were transplanted from their original production areas in India and South East Asia. This means that demand must have built up in China first (shipped in through trade) before someone tried to cultivate it in China.

Final note, the objective of Zheng He's fleet was to expand the tributary network of the imperial court. The nature of the tributary system was not to enrich China but to expand its supposed "influence" through reciprocal exchanges (obviosly the emperor, as the "benevolent ruler," would have to give something much more expensive) and was actually very costly to the national treasury. We are not in disagreement upon the extraordinary drain on the treasury from Zheng He's voyages, and were discontinued as a result. What I do have a problem with is regarding your claims that travel and trade by sea between China and the Middle East was "impossible," that China was some sort of self-sufficient economy and only traded along its own coast, and that the Silk Road was safer and more profitable than maritime routes.

Click to expand...

What exactly are you trying to argue with then?

1. Zheng He's fleet never made money, hence it was cancelled. I find you actually in agreement with this part so surely this is not it.

2. I think I already defined direct trade. Furthermore, like I said, the fact that there already are existing, though shorter distance sea trade routes negates the necessity of having Zheng He's fleet for trade.

Not to mention I think that you forget context is important. In my last three posts I've mentioned that IT IS possible for a merchant to get from China in the Middle East, in fact, they don't even need to own their own ships to do so. But what I clearly stated is that having a ship of the calibre of Zheng He's WAS impossible if one has profit in mind. So once again, let me know if you have disagreements with this.

3. This is the part where I find something interesting in your argument, but it's still irrelevant. First of all, spices didn't come from SE Asia to China during Ming times. It came much earlier. Secondly, alright, suppose you have this huge demand for spices, do you necessarily need to use Zheng He's fleet import it?

I think both of us have acknowledged that there is already a set of well established trade routes to the region, so why do you need to build a fleet. Especially since spices is a perishable item (not as much as certain other food items, but still one), which means you are constructing a fleet (which costs a lot) to carry spices to China (which increases the risks of a loss in the form of spoilage) when you could have simply paid an Indian merchant or Chinese merchant travelling to the area to do the same.

Why the hell would anyone in their right minds do that? Remember, the context of which is, should we build a fleet of Zheng He's calibre to import spices. Now I personally think that's silly, but apparently we have some disagreements.

4. The non-functional tributary system is precisely why Zheng He's missions are failures from the economical sense. What he should have done (and which I've indeed already clarified) is go to the next local king/warlord/shah/what have you and said, see my fleet, pay tribute or I'll blow all your coastal cities to rubbles. But instead of earning money, the Ming dynasty bankrolled huge expenses so Zhu Di can prove his legitimacy.

Given all the above, and the context in which I made my claims, I see no problem with them. I suggest that you re-read my posts again. Otherwise you would just be arguing with something you for the most part, have no argument with.

mindreader said:

What exactly are you trying to argue with then?

1. Zheng He's fleet never made money, hence it was cancelled. I find you actually in agreement with this part so surely this is not it.

2. I think I already defined direct trade. Furthermore, like I said, the fact that there already are existing, though shorter distance sea trade routes negates the necessity of having Zheng He's fleet for trade.

Not to mention I think that you forget context is important. In my last three posts I've mentioned that IT IS possible for a merchant to get from China in the Middle East, in fact, they don't even need to own their own ships to do so. But what I clearly stated is that having a ship of the calibre of Zheng He's WAS impossible if one has profit in mind. So once again, let me know if you have disagreements with this.

3. This is the part where I find something interesting in your argument, but it's still irrelevant. First of all, spices didn't come from SE Asia to China during Ming times. It came much earlier. Secondly, alright, suppose you have this huge demand for spices, do you necessarily need to use Zheng He's fleet import it?

I think both of us have acknowledged that there is already a set of well established trade routes to the region, so why do you need to build a fleet. Especially since spices is a perishable item (not as much as certain other food items, but still one), which means you are constructing a fleet (which costs a lot) to carry spices to China (which increases the risks of a loss in the form of spoilage) when you could have simply paid an Indian merchant or Chinese merchant travelling to the area to do the same.

Why the hell would anyone in their right minds do that? Remember, the context of which is, should we build a fleet of Zheng He's calibre to import spices. Now I personally think that's silly, but apparently we have some disagreements.

4. The non-functional tributary system is precisely why Zheng He's missions are failures from the economical sense. What he should have done (and which I've indeed already clarified) is go to the next local king/warlord/shah/what have you and said, see my fleet, pay tribute or I'll blow all your coastal cities to rubbles. But instead of earning money, the Ming dynasty bankrolled huge expenses so Zhu Di can prove his legitimacy.

Given all the above, and the context in which I made my claims, I see no problem with them. I suggest that you re-read my posts again. Otherwise you would just be arguing with something you for the most part, have no argument with.

Click to expand...

If you need me to spell it out for you, I am not arguing with your main point since it is correct in my mind. I am disputing some of the supporting points which you used to advance your main argument in previous posts. I thought this was fairly obvious since I never once refuted or even mentioned your main claim in my first post (ie. Zheng He never made any money).

Hello,

Many things are not true, although the author Gavin Menzies made a lot of money out of his book without any fact on the discovery of America around then. There are many issues involve here and one would have to stay true to the science of things to realised all. For example, Asian in America could have happened before the gold rush in California, could have been centuries ago, but not necessary 1418 or within that 100 years +/- time frame. so DNA testing doesn't prove anything really except the fact that there are people with the Asian blood, the rest is just stories rand tales really. The recent discovered map is a "claimed" copy of the original 1418 map, where is the 1418 map? Someone's claim something doesn't mean that it is necessary true. I have seen fakes going way back to many centuries ago as there were already people who would buy something with a big fake artist name on it, Japanese included, such as Masamune made Japanese sword. I have seen an early map by about a dozen years and it looks way off from this 1418 version. THE KEY TO PROVE ANYTHING IS TO HAVE A REAL 1418 MAP, and without it everything is just pure fraction. Remember, anything after the Columbus discovery of America doesn't count, as that is the very date that the knowledge of Asia, Europe and America had been established, words and map could be passed on from that point on. Gavin Menzies needs to find evidence(s) that the very same fleet that he spoke of was doing what he said they were to prove his own point, and all the existing material doesn't suggest so even for another 100 plus years after 1418. Also, any evidence could have been planted at a later date, such as plant, animal, even artifact of the Ming Dynasty, he would need a real boat that there is in no other way could have got there otherwise, with natural deposit on it from the nature aging of material nearby in the very same location. Chinese could have been all over the place even way before 1418, who knows? But those doesn't make it a America discovery, those could have been done pre-historically. It make more sense if he name his book as who landed on America first and yet went back home to report such finding, but as for discovery and documentation, once again, need evidence.

Also, there were a whole lot more going on at that period of time if Chinese history is being looked at by many more folds, not just the money, but also the politics at the time. The issue in here stays the same, did he or did he not accomplished so much as claimed and if so, where is the evidence? Also, I do not have any problem with the idea of the size of the treasure junk after seeing the Great Wall of China, or the Yamato from Japan during WWII, or the size of the pier, and I am so sick and tired of Chinese burning all the books every so many hundred years, but proves settle all things and where is it?

Here is a link to the 1402 so called world map from China:



Can you see the huge difference? Does it even occur to anybody that the so called claimed to be a copy of the 1418 map looks just like the centuries later European world map, with many updates on the description (I happen to read classical Chinese perfectly) with the name North America and South America (after Chinese translation) seems to be a little TOO ORIGINAL for any professional view point?

In order to go from the 1402 map to the "claimed" 1418 map, plus to receive acceptance of earth as being round, plus figuring out drawing the whole world map as 2 connected circles on a flat surface without stating that it is in fact a representation of 2 half hemispheres joined together, and yet it wasn't represented as a whole square shape map similar to the 1402 map without the circular cut out, it only suggest that the 1418 map is highly unlikely for real, more of a hoax at the time, but not entirely impossible and yet there is not one solid proof.

I could only wish I watched the PBS show early enough to end this hypothesis (NOT a theory or a fact without any proof) so that no one would even have to waste any money to make some nut case rich.

Kind regards,

Tony Ng (San Francisco)

Arguements about who landed on North America first are in fact pointless. It is neither of them, the true holder of this title is my distant relative Eric, who discovered it in 1000 AD.

This of course means that North America is the property of Iceland and that all you guys that live there are all late with the rent:nono: :nono:

Just what I would expect from you. Well done indeed.

SampanViking said:

Arguements about who landed on North America first are in fact pointless. It is neither of them, the true holder of this title is my distant relative Eric, who discovered it in 1000 AD.

This of course means that North America is the property of Iceland and that all you guys that live there are all late with the rent:nono: :nono:

Click to expand...

have you forgotten the native indian mate, they are the true title owner of north america, anyone else came after them, still HAVN't pay rent.

regarding the story of zheng he going to africa. it's one of human great epic which has not been fully credited for human expansion of knowlegdes and communcations.

crews = 27,000 men
concubine = 1000

Treasure ship 135 m

Ship 120 meters plus = 60
Support ships = 300

wow.

columbus

ship = 1
how long = 28 meter
crew = 56
concubine = hand

sad

Gaginang said:

regarding the story of zheng he going to africa. it's one of human great epic which has not been fully credited for human expansion of knowlegdes and communcations.

Click to expand...

I think the main problem with Zheng He is that it is very questionable as to whether he actually "achieved" as much as the other great explorers. The others encouraged others to follow on, whereas the Chinese government stopped the fleets after a while. What ZH found wasn't used by following generations of sailors.

It was impressive, but perhaps also somewhat futile.

There's no chinese text where we can find something about this giant ships

Niccolo di Conti traveled to china in 1450 and when he came back he was lying to push europe to invest more in sea discoverys

ger_mark said:

There's no chinese text where we can find something about this giant ships

Niccolo di Conti traveled to china in 1450 and when he came back he was lying to push europe to invest more in sea discoverys

Click to expand...

Try chinese maritime musuem for the evident of the giant ships. Alot of stuff in the book 1421 are bulleck, but some the theories have grounds.

first the chinese invented the compass and they knew how to used it well, second the chinese mastered the art of sailing into the wind,
third the chinese knew how to read the stars
forth the chinese was the most advanced nation on earth,
fifth the chinese had the resources


i don't see, why the chinese didn't travelled and maped the world. after all they also the first to draw the equator. if they haven't traveled the world, how would they can divide the globe into spheres.