mindreader
New Member
maglomanic said:Mindreader,
i do agree that "could" and should dont represent reality but then thats what we do here on boards. Discuss all those shoulds and coulds
Regarding the sea travel not being safer than silk route. I would disagree. Chinese Junks were much better built than what was used to discover America or circumnavigate. We are not even talking about crossing atlantic here more like traveling near the shores of south China,malaysia,india into middleeast. One handicap was knowledge of winds and their timings but Zhenghai and his men learned quickly from arabs when to make these journeys.
What you are underestimating is the volume of goods that "could" be transported without having a middile man (sorry for the could).
What was done at that time to make sea passage less problematic was creating outposts near shores of malaka and other countries in Indian ocean.
If you think about it same could have been done by allowing private merchants to own ships or to provide them a shipping service from one foriegn post to another foriegn post.
I would disagree on that too.
Spices maynot be of value to Chinese but taking them to middile east and selling them to merchats who would in turn take em to europe where they were quite expensive. Similary Chinese silk was considered a very expensive item and was popular if i am not wrong.
I cannot attest to what i saw in the documentary but they said horses were in huge demand for military purposes.
Regarding the entire passage back and forth, just consider this that they were able to transport a huge girrafe from Africa in few months to China. Middle east was even nearer.
Probably and i dont know enough on the subject too. All i am saying is, the way Europeans set out for trade and then colonized so many countries which ofcourse resulted in their benefit, China could too have done something like tha. If not outright rule, then just having influence could have helped too. You combine few benefits from a dozen countries and it would start looking more than just peanuts.
Indeed that was one important strait in the world today. Expeditions were probably expenses but they were more like a head start. It was more about setting a precedent, more people could have followed in the same footsteps (merchants and traders) .
But anyway, all this is my opnion and i do admit that i hardly have rudenmentary knowledge on the subject. Just thinking aloud about "coulds" and possibilties
Several clarifications here:
1. Yeah Zheng He's ships are build pretty well, but you see, nature has a way of screwing you over. Even today, with motorboats and steel hulls, a nasty storm still has a chance to flip your boat, especially going on such long distances.
Even if it doesn't, blowing your ship of course is a huge problem. As advanced as Zheng He's navigational system for its day, let's say a lone ship is blown off course, it could be days before you figure out your bearings, let alone rejoining the fleet.
Morale is another problem. Let me remind you that Columbus' men were almost in outright mutiny, luckily he discovered America. Disease, growing sea-sickness, discipline are all problems.
Thank god Zheng He's fleet is so powerful, otherwise he would have pirate raids too.
2. Sorry but no, you can't just provide private merchants with such ships. First of all, let me remind you that well established sea trade was occurring in China almost two millennia before Zheng He was born. It also occurred in Europe as well in roughly the same period of time. In fact, Venetian sea trade is quite famous.
But such sea trades are mostly limited to known sea routes, namely Mediterranean Sea and coastal China, far closer to what Zheng He travelled. Even with such a safety net, pirate raids and storms are significant problems.
So you might ask, why don't you give Zheng's ships to the merchants? Simple, they will never be able to afford them, both in terms of purchase and maintenance costs. Even if you purchase one such powerful ship you can't sail with it. Aside from the fact that most merchants simply do not have the sophistication to maintain such a ship, there is also the issue of hiring a highly qualified crew.
The last reason has to do with finance really. Sea trade along coastal China essentially is low risk high return. Going with a fleet such a far distance in hopes of finding something is high (if not extreme) risk high return. low risk high return beats high risk high return any day of the week, which is why you see such early explorations are without exception, funded (grudgingly) by governments.
3. I think one thing you forgot is that China produces spice, in vast quantities too. I see no reason for them to import them in such quantity from India.
Furthermore I think you forgot that whereas Zheng He's fleet essentially goes one way (except occasionally bringing foreign dignitaries to China), the silk road goes both ways. Many merchants from the Middle East were travelling along the silk road to China, either to do business or settle. In essence, they paid part of the "cost" for the silk road.
And bringing a giraff for amusement purposes is far easier than maintaining a steady supply of horses. Yes they were in high demand, largely because China doesn't produce any, but going by land would be a lot cheaper.
4. I think you are talking about colonization instead of purely strategic locations. The first significant difference is that colonies by the European powers were largely self sufficient and in fact, turned out positive revenues and resources. Some of those colonies just happened to be in strategically important locations. Strategic locations by themselves however, is not the same. They turn very little resources and the revenue is generally negative.
Think about the Golan Heights for example, what economic benefits does it provide?
If your point was that Zheng He should have colonized, I have no problem with that. In fact, if you read my original post, I said:
"If Zheng He went around in his fleet and conquored or plundered eveything he saw (his fleet certainly had more than the capacity to do so) thus yielding a positive cashflow, I doubt any minister in the Ming court would complain."
