Z-10 thread

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wtlh

Junior Member
Well autorotation is only possible in very rare situations.
Also necessary for autorotation is a tail rotor that is completely unarmored...

Actually, autorotation does not require an operational tail rotor. The helicopter will not spin because autorotation is powered by the falling motion of the aircraft against the air rather than the engine.

Autorotation has about the same air-resistance coefficient as a parachute. And even a couple of damaged blades do not cause too much of a detrimental effect, as long as there are still some that are working and have enough strength and balance to support the weight of the helicopter. Losing one or two blades just means the rotor will automatically rotate faster in autorotation.

When we were small, we used to make those paper autorotating things and throw them down from school buildings, trying to compete to see whose went down most gracefully and with best rotation. We also varied designs. It was a sure way of finding out that the speed of these things fall depends not on the number of blades, but on the lateral angle and the length of the blades compared to the main body.
 

Black Shark

Junior Member
Actually, autorotation does not require an operational tail rotor. The helicopter will not spin because autorotation is powered by the falling motion of the aircraft against the air rather than the engine.

Autorotation has about the same air-resistance coefficient as a parachute. And even a couple of damaged blades do not cause too much of a detrimental effect, as long as there are still some that are working and have enough strength and balance to support the weight of the helicopter. Losing one or two blades just means the rotor will automatically rotate faster in autorotation.

When we were small, we used to make those paper autorotating things and throw them down from school buildings, trying to compete to see whose went down most gracefully and with best rotation. We also varied designs. It was a sure way of finding out that the speed of these things fall depends not on the number of blades, but on the lateral angle and the length of the blades compared to the main body.

Autorotation requires professional handling. If the helicopter is hit by a MANPAD or a salvo and destroyes tailrotor or rips of the tail, especially the tail section which gives the helicopter a stream lined body, the airfram loses the airfoil that is stabilizing the helicopter in forward flight, meaning that the torque from the main rotor overcomes the remaining air. In this case if the pilot does not manage to unload the disc and the torque it will start to spin. I am not a pilot but in a such threatening and frightening situation after an impact i would bet that most people will be in shock before they actually realize what happened and how to handle such situations. This is very often visible in mast bumping accidents when even experienced pilots with above average flight hours were reacting wrong or to slow.

Autorotation is a difficult procedure under combat conditions and the loss of rotor blades (especially more than one) will lead to almost unhandable to impossible to handle situations. Lets take AH-1Z for instace, a rotor with 4 rotor blades, when it losses one rotor blade it theoratically still could produce enough drag to keep the RPM high and autorotate, but that is already a situation that puts alot of complications. An asymetrical rotor disc, creates vibrations which effect the entire rotorhead and the angle of attack of the rotor blades is not constant in the favored angle, which will have an effect on the RPM which is the critical factor a pilot must maintain on the way down to succesfully performe an autorotation. If the AH-1Z losses two rotor blades it will be already impossible to sustain the rpm and it is even highly unlikely that he will maintain a controlled sinking/falling and the helicopter in a horizontal way. Making some autorotating Paperwork is far different from an actual aircraft that weights some several tones and not just the rotor blades themselfs, which i also did when i was small.
 

wtlh

Junior Member
Autorotation requires professional handling. If the helicopter is hit by a MANPAD or a salvo and destroyes tailrotor or rips of the tail, especially the tail section which gives the helicopter a stream lined body, the airfram loses the airfoil that is stabilizing the helicopter in forward flight, meaning that the torque from the main rotor overcomes the remaining air. In this case if the pilot does not manage to unload the disc and the torque it will start to spin. I am not a pilot but in a such threatening and frightening situation after an impact i would bet that most people will be in shock before they actually realize what happened and how to handle such situations. This is very often visible in mast bumping accidents when even experienced pilots with above average flight hours were reacting wrong or to slow.

Autorotation is a difficult procedure under combat conditions and the loss of rotor blades (especially more than one) will lead to almost unhandable to impossible to handle situations. Lets take AH-1Z for instace, a rotor with 4 rotor blades, when it losses one rotor blade it theoratically still could produce enough drag to keep the RPM high and autorotate, but that is already a situation that puts alot of complications. An asymetrical rotor disc, creates vibrations which effect the entire rotorhead and the angle of attack of the rotor blades is not constant in the favored angle, which will have an effect on the RPM which is the critical factor a pilot must maintain on the way down to succesfully performe an autorotation. If the AH-1Z losses two rotor blades it will be already impossible to sustain the rpm and it is even highly unlikely that he will maintain a controlled sinking/falling and the helicopter in a horizontal way. Making some autorotating Paperwork is far different from an actual aircraft that weights some several tones and not just the rotor blades themselfs, which i also did when i was small.

I fully agree with you that autorotation has many associated risks in combat and non-ideal situations. I was simply commenting that the autorotation process does not need a tail-rotor, and that missing or chewed up blades will not automatically mean a death-sentence.

I guess another reason many of the western and Chinese designs did not have the ejection seats, and more so wrt the Chinese design, is the size of the cockpit, and that the designers had to work within very tight weight restrictions. Just look how tight the Z-10 cockpit is. The smaller the cockpit, the less armour is needed to protect it, and thus reduces the weight, with weight being the chief issue for Z-10, with its underpowered engines.

As you have said too, ejection systems are nice to have insurance policies, and if a pilot can autorotate, he will do so as the first choice. If the Z-10 is envisioned to be mainly flying just above tree-tops, and hiding behind trees and hill tops, then its crush structure may already offer enough to save the lives of the pilots in the event of a crash from these heights. So the cost involved in having a design incorporating ejection seats---larger cockpit, more weight, reliable explosive bolts etc etc---may not be judged to be justifiable for a not too significant increase in the percentages of pilot survivability in their risk analysis.
 
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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Looks like Z-10 is doing maritime roles only logical for PLAN hoping for LHA/LHD operations

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Franklin

Captain
The WZ-16 turboshaft engine is now in production. Its meant for the Z-15 platform but can also be used in the WZ-10. The engine is a joint venture between France and China. Does anyone know how the workload is being divided up between France and China ? Or can China build those engines without French involvement ?

And what about the WZ-9 turboshaft engines ? I suppose the development of that platform isn't standing still either.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
The WZ-16 turboshaft engine is now in production. Its meant for the Z-15 platform but can also be used in the WZ-10. The engine is a joint venture between France and China. Does anyone know how the workload is being divided up between France and China ? Or can China build those engines without French involvement ?

And what about the WZ-9 turboshaft engines ? I suppose the development of that platform isn't standing still either.

well, it was 50:50 basis .... neither China or French would be able to build the engine

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asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Well let's see what comes of this May be great news

In summary

China will provide 3 x Z-10 attack helicopters to Pakistan in 2015 for anti-terror operations

US has continued to refuse sale for further AH-1 attack helos and Apaches so I think it maybe a blessing in disguise and we can evaluate this helo in rough mountains on real targets and supply China with data and performance characteristics which may allow them to make changes and further develop this helo into a true dedicated attack helo for Pakistan's terrain

I hope it's true as both nations would greatly benefit from this deal and establishing a helicopter build facility in Multan like PAC would be a fantastic move

15ea335fd378a3c55219a81b9296902c_zps7c449bb7.jpg
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Well let's see what comes of this May be great news

In summary

China will provide 3 x Z-10 attack helicopters to Pakistan in 2015 for anti-terror operations

US has continued to refuse sale for further AH-1 attack helos and Apaches so I think it maybe a blessing in disguise and we can evaluate this helo in rough mountains on real targets and supply China with data and performance characteristics which may allow them to make changes and further develop this helo into a true dedicated attack helo for Pakistan's terrain

I hope it's true as both nations would greatly benefit from this deal and establishing a helicopter build facility in Multan like PAC would be a fantastic move

15ea335fd378a3c55219a81b9296902c_zps7c449bb7.jpg

Hmmm ... is this the same text ???

However I'm a bit skeptical ... what's the source of this or these images ?

Deino
 

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Black Shark

Junior Member
To bad china is to secretly about its Z-10, would love to see specifics of electronics, what specific rounds they may have designed for Type-23-1 cannon, if it has Image processing and how the development goes on for the radar and its capability requirements.
 
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