Z-10 thread

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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I think attack helos ejects whole cabin in an emergency rather than individual seats, a la Goldeneye style

Nope. That's total Hollywood bunk.
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The Kamov KA50/52 uses a system where in the canopy is jettisoned via rockets after the main rotor has shredded itself. Then the flight crew is catapulted out
The Mil Mi28 uses a different system where in panels on the sides of the cockpit blow off and the pilots are ejects sideways and down out of the chopper.
All other attack helicopters use auto rotation and ride the chopper in. That may change with the rise of next Gen compound choppers but I doubt it.
 

Black Shark

Junior Member
Nope. That's total Hollywood bunk.
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The Kamov KA50/52 uses a system where in the canopy is jettisoned via rockets after the main rotor has shredded itself. Then the flight crew is catapulted out
The Mil Mi28 uses a different system where in panels on the sides of the cockpit blow off and the pilots are ejects sideways and down out of the chopper.
All other attack helicopters use auto rotation and ride the chopper in. That may change with the rise of next Gen compound choppers but I doubt it.

Well autorotation is only possible in very rare situations.
To safely autorotate you need working rotor blades which in case of military hardware that is shot beyond operational is not really the common thing, destroyed rotor blades or damaged from big AA calibres or SAM/MANPADS to look like bambus punishment sticks that look like that...

apache1_2.jpg

Also necessary for autorotation is a tail rotor that is completly unarmored and can be ripped off by MANPADS/SAM and 20mm+ AA guns, unfortunatley most situations it is not possible to performe auto-rotation, the success rate of autorotations performed is not even high in civil area, which only face engine problems and not getting fired upon, no destroyed rotor blades or tail for military pilots it is a rather hard job to do, so ejection seats will be necessary especially with the developing and highly capable MANPADS that are getting Imaging Infrared seekers that are very resistant against IRCMs and flares.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
that is a valid point but can a Ejection system be made absolutely reliable?
the Chopper in the movie the Eurocopter Tiger EC665 does not however have a ejection system every production wester helicopter lacks a Ejection system.
This is the Fear.
[video=youtube_share;W005xnJvaSg]http://youtu.be/W005xnJvaSg[/video]
The Pilot was lucky he Survived.
To date only Russia has actually employed Ejection seats in a production helicopter. The Us has tested it in the S72.
[video=youtube_share;jLhZN7fTwQQ]http://youtu.be/jLhZN7fTwQQ[/video]

Now the concept displayed in Goldeneye is based on a real system seen last in the F111 bomber. The Escape Crew Capsule does make some sense for such as the armored cockpit would protect the crew from the blades in the case they stayed.
another issue is ejection from a helicopter is not always a option for the whole crew. Most Helicopters are transports and lack any form of escape system.
 

Black Shark

Junior Member
that is a valid point but can a Ejection system be made absolutely reliable?
the Chopper in the movie the Eurocopter Tiger EC665 does not however have a ejection system every production wester helicopter lacks a Ejection system.
This is the Fear.
[video=youtube_share;W005xnJvaSg]http://youtu.be/W005xnJvaSg[/video]
The Pilot was lucky he Survived.
To date only Russia has actually employed Ejection seats in a production helicopter. The Us has tested it in the S72.
[video=youtube_share;jLhZN7fTwQQ]http://youtu.be/jLhZN7fTwQQ[/video]

Now the concept displayed in Goldeneye is based on a real system seen last in the F111 bomber. The Escape Crew Capsule does make some sense for such as the armored cockpit would protect the crew from the blades in the case they stayed.
another issue is ejection from a helicopter is not always a option for the whole crew. Most Helicopters are transports and lack any form of escape system.

The first video is just unnecessary for simple reason old helicopter that could not even fly to take this as an argument for getting into turning rotor blades, because in ejection system there will be no rotor blades.

Today such systems are very good and accurate, russia has tested them since late 70s and early 80s on different helicopters like Mi-2,Mi-4,Mi-8 and than later on V-80 (Ka-50). The blades are seperated and fly off through the centrifugal force, that is simple physics, so you have only to make sure you use a safe explosive that will not explode in case of hit by projectiles, temperature resistant and will not be effected by weather or moisture and than just add it to maintenance so they get switched for newer explosives like pyrobolts or whatever system they may prefer. A safe explosive like russians use for Kontakt5 ERA, which does not even explode under 30mm API, but explodes for RPGs and APFSDS.


The point is we can not determine how unsafe ejection seats for helicopters are when there are only two helicopters with such a system. I think it is very reliable to say that having ejection seats on your helicopter is a very good thing, because you are dead in case of destroyed rotor blades, especially when you have only two or less than 5 rotor blades that will create vibrations, which may even chop into the helicopter itself.


The other part you mentioned that the Goldeneye like ejection system would protect pilots from rotor blades that is wrong.
There are over 800 accidents of Mast bumping with UH1 and AH-1 which has an armored cockpit, of course a lot of acryl glass, but most western helicopters have big acryl glass and almst no structural metal/armor parts for cockpit. Among those accidents with "Mast bumping" there are a few accidents where the rotor blades decapitated AH-1 pilots, i don't know how rotor blades would face against real full armored cockpit with not such big and unarmored cockpits like on all western helicopters, but having an ejection system in a situation where you know that autorotation is out of question due the damage the helicopter has, i would luckily take any chances possible of the 1:10000 or whatever the chances are of failed ejection.
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I think some people do confuse or try to portray it that if russians have ejection seats on Ka-52/Mi-28 they are not trained or not wanting to performe autorotation. In case of Ka-52 a co-axial system produces far more lift in autorotation and will have better chances to produce enough airfoil and land safely. Russian pilots do get training for autorotation, so in case they know they can land with autorotation they will do it.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I posted that as a graphic illustration of the main fear of such a system. In that case the pilot was not actually ejected via a ejector seat but because of the Aircraft and open cockpit.
Now you do make a valid point and I stand corrected. but just as Choppers crash so to do explosive bolts fail. in the event that the timing or bolts have failed to fire is my point.
there are only two ( Three if you count the KA52 as a separate chopper) combat choppers in the world that have employed a ejector system. and there is a alternative option the Havoc's system operates on a different mode Ejecting away from the rotor system which I feel would be far more preferable.
 

Black Shark

Junior Member
I posted that as a graphic illustration of the main fear of such a system. In that case the pilot was not actually ejected via a ejector seat but because of the Aircraft and open cockpit.
Now you do make a valid point and I stand corrected. but just as Choppers crash so to do explosive bolts fail. in the event that the timing or bolts have failed to fire is my point.
there are only two ( Three if you count the KA52 as a separate chopper) combat choppers in the world that have employed a ejector system. and there is a alternative option the Havoc's system operates on a different mode Ejecting away from the rotor system which I feel would be far more preferable.

I on the other hand would not feel the same concerns in a Ka-52 because i know that this system is far safer than a dumping system like on Mi-28 and i explain why i do s.

The Ka-52 uses a rocket engine for ejection on a rail which directs both pilots away from each other and away from the rotor mast, it also gives the opportunity to eject in altitudes beneath 100m, which not always are good for crash landing.

The Mi-28 uses a dumping system, if above 100m which is registered by altimeter, it will activate FADEC emergency modus and raise the rotor blades angle of attack so the helicopter does not fall but sustain its altitude or raises, so when the pilots actually get "dumped" after the stubbed wings have jettisoned and the inflated saftey cushion. The problem is see with this system it can occure that the engines are completley destroyed, the rotor blades ripped off so it does not generate any lift or at least sustain its speed, meaning if the pilots than try to bail out with a falling helicopter that has the same falling speed as the pilots, they will maybe shredded or hit to death mid-air, this is not as safe as K-37 ejection seats.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
that is a point as well. so it becomes a debate of what you think is more likely to kill you if Mr. Murphy has decided that he likes you today. explosive bolt failure or slamming into the side of the chopper your trying to get out of. geez what a uplifting selection of choices.... This is probably why most western pilots try to ride the chopper in and why most attack and conventional helicopters are designed to survive and crush themselves in a crash.
but as we move into the 2020's it seems more and more likely that the performance specs of next generation choppers will be higher altitude and higher speed. For details on those see the S97 Raider prototype and related JMR Program, the Eurocopter X3 demonstrator and the Russian KA92/ Mil Mi-X1 concepts as these birds move from paper to reality the questions of survivability are going to become more and more asked and with them it may push followup of More wide spread use of Ejection technologies in such choppers. of course Tiltrotors have it easy in this as ling as you install a ejection system that propels straight up and back you can avoid the rotors.

but all of that is neither here nor there. Z10 and Z19 both lack ejection systems and follow the conventional ride it in mindset.
 

lcloo

Captain
The speculated ejection handle is IMO just a Park Brake Handle. AF Brat may be able to confirm if he has done some chopper flying.
 

aksha

Captain
Re: World ATTACK Helicopters

WZ-10 "Thunderbolt"

[video=youtube;yjd-YyXt98w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjd-YyXt98w[/video]
 
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