Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Do not bother with such comments. These are military weapons. China is under embargo on military sales so they can't license anything from these countries anyway. They opened themselves up to be copied like that. In any country there are laws where the military can ignore patents and copyrights. This includes the US military. Just read the bullshit about MultiCam vs OCP cammo.
Funny how China managed to put a "copy" in the water before the "original"
Well, they still go around about the Tu-144 being a copy of the Concorde, despite the wings being completely different and one flying before the other so they made up this silly theory about flawed blueprints and whatnot.
PiSigma
"the engineer"
China invents time machine in future to steal obsolete technology in past to help their past selves. And they also stole time machine tech from people who haven't invented it yet
PiSigma
"the engineer"
There is a popular phrase now called "source of truth". Basically the truth doesn't matter as long as it a "truth" they want to hear and reference.
Copy or not, as long as it works and blows shit up.
From Naval News by H I SUTTON
»»The New Mystery Submarine Seen in China: What We Know
Click to Enlarge. The new submarine, part of the Yuan family of designs, features a distinctive stealthy sail. A chine runs along the upper part creating sloping surfaces which may be intended to reduce the radar cross-section when surfaced.
The ability to keep your submarine designs secret may confer a tactical or strategic advantage in the future. Yet they are also massive projects which most countries cannot keep completely secret. The US Navy’s submarine building plans for example, are known years in advance. Not in China. On May 12 2021 we got our first which was ready to be launched at a shipyard in Wuhan. This creates a lot of analysis, and some wild speculation.
Since May a brief segment of video and another candid photograph have come to light, enabling a deeper analysis. The submarine is currently on the Huangpu River in Shanghai, in the vicinity of 31°15’22.49″N, 121°32’38.71″E.
Before dealing with what we know, we should highlight something which we do not. We don’t know it’s name or designation.
Western observers have taken to referring to it as the Type-039C or –D. The last letter refers to it being either the third or forth (depending on who you ask) major variant of the existing Type-039A Yuan Class. These letters, including for the previous -B model, have been given by Western observers. Although they are widely used in defense circles, and I myself have been guilty of this, the Chinese Navy hasn’t shared their actual designations. So all of these might be wrong.
By far the most distinctive feature of the new submarine is the sail. This has an angled upper section with an angled chine running along it. The angles created resemble the fuselages of stealth fighter planes and may reduce its radar cross-section when it is on the surface. This would make it more stealthy when entering or leaving port. We can speculate that it may have hydrodynamic advantages, such as reducing the wake while at periscope depth.
The mystery submarine is currently in a river in Shanghai. Despite masses of people nearby photos are still extremely rare. Includes material © CNES 2021, Distribution Airbus DS all rights reserved / PLEIADES satellite imagery. Acquired through ShadowBreak Intl
The reshaped sail also creates significant volume near its top which may be used to house new systems. However, overall the sail is not larger than the previous Yuan class boats. So unless there is a significant reduction in the size of the masts, it seems unlikely that houses anything substantial.
The Swedish submarine features much more blended lines with a curved leading edge of the sail merging seamlessly into the casing. The Chinese boat has a much straighter leading edge and less blended lower section. The hydroplanes are also positioned differently with the Swedish ones being along the line of the chine. The Chinese boat has them in the same position as previous Yuan class boats, which places them lower and further forward.
Unlike many countries building non-nuclear submarines, including the Swedes, Chinese designers have not adopted X-form rudders. Instead the traditional cruciform arrangement is retained. The upper rudder now has a towed array sonar (TAS) cable running through it. This may hint at a significant sensor upgrade for the class as previous Yuans had not been reported with towed arrays.
While comparisons with the Swedish A-26 are natural, it is worth noting that Chinese designers have come up with similar ideas in the past. Angled faces where added to the upper section of aType-035 Ming class submarine in around 2010. Only a small part was modified so it wouldn’t have had much effect when the boat was fully surfaced. But it may have been beneficial when only this section was above the waves.
It’s also too long ago to suggest that it was directly related to the new submarine, but it shows that the thinking was already there. So with this in mind observers should not rush to brand the new boat a copy of the A-26.
Overall the Swedish A-26 is a less compromised design, while the Chinese one is constrained by the pre-existing structure of the Yuan class. In essence it is a radical reshaping of the sail and, to an extent the casing, but still on the same frame.
The Swedish A-26 Blekinge Class also features an angled sail. The similarities are only superficial however and while it may have been an influence, it is hardly a copy. Photo Saab.
Overall the new boat is approximately the same length as the earlier Yuans. This suggests that it hasn’t had an extra compartment added to accommodate vertical launch tubes for missiles. Or some radically new power plant.
These submarines are also equipped with Air independent Power (AIP). This likely uses a closed-cycle Stirling engine, similar to that on the A-26 class, to power the submarine when submerged. This means that it doesn’t have to snorkel to run its diesel generators, to recharge the batteries. Being able to run submerged for much longer greatly increases stealth. The trade-off is that the AIP generates less power so the submarine has to move slowly.
Note that the AIP powers the electric motor directly. It is a common misunderstanding that it recharges the batteries in lieu of the diesel generator. For this reason the diesels are retained.
There is speculation that China may have fitted lithium-ion batteries. These offer a much greater power density and may even make AIP unnecessary. However experts cannot agree and it is a cae of wait and see,
Like previous Yuan Class boats it is likely to be armed with a range of weapons including wire guided torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and mines. And there is the possibly that it can carry land-attack cruise missiles, shot out through the torpedo tubes.
The new submarine may be experimental, or possibly for export, so there is lots more that we do not know. The element of mystique is partly what will keep observers watching it more closely than other types.
»»The New Mystery Submarine Seen in China: What We Know
Click to Enlarge. The new submarine, part of the Yuan family of designs, features a distinctive stealthy sail. A chine runs along the upper part creating sloping surfaces which may be intended to reduce the radar cross-section when surfaced.
The New Mystery Submarine Seen In China: What We Know
At the height of the Cold War defense analysts often tried to piece together information about a new types of submarine seen outside shipyards. Today this is playing out again, only in China. A new submarine, with an unusual sail, has recently emerged.
25 Jun 2021The ability to keep your submarine designs secret may confer a tactical or strategic advantage in the future. Yet they are also massive projects which most countries cannot keep completely secret. The US Navy’s submarine building plans for example, are known years in advance. Not in China. On May 12 2021 we got our first which was ready to be launched at a shipyard in Wuhan. This creates a lot of analysis, and some wild speculation.
Since May a brief segment of video and another candid photograph have come to light, enabling a deeper analysis. The submarine is currently on the Huangpu River in Shanghai, in the vicinity of 31°15’22.49″N, 121°32’38.71″E.
Before dealing with what we know, we should highlight something which we do not. We don’t know it’s name or designation.
Western observers have taken to referring to it as the Type-039C or –D. The last letter refers to it being either the third or forth (depending on who you ask) major variant of the existing Type-039A Yuan Class. These letters, including for the previous -B model, have been given by Western observers. Although they are widely used in defense circles, and I myself have been guilty of this, the Chinese Navy hasn’t shared their actual designations. So all of these might be wrong.
By far the most distinctive feature of the new submarine is the sail. This has an angled upper section with an angled chine running along it. The angles created resemble the fuselages of stealth fighter planes and may reduce its radar cross-section when it is on the surface. This would make it more stealthy when entering or leaving port. We can speculate that it may have hydrodynamic advantages, such as reducing the wake while at periscope depth.
The reshaped sail also creates significant volume near its top which may be used to house new systems. However, overall the sail is not larger than the previous Yuan class boats. So unless there is a significant reduction in the size of the masts, it seems unlikely that houses anything substantial.
Swedish Influence? The A-26 Class
Because of the angled sail there is a natural comparison with the Swedish A-26 Blekinge Class submarine. Superficially it look similar. And it is possible that the Swedish design, which has been public for many years, was an inspiration. But on closer examination there is only a general resemblance and they are actually quite different.The Swedish submarine features much more blended lines with a curved leading edge of the sail merging seamlessly into the casing. The Chinese boat has a much straighter leading edge and less blended lower section. The hydroplanes are also positioned differently with the Swedish ones being along the line of the chine. The Chinese boat has them in the same position as previous Yuan class boats, which places them lower and further forward.
Unlike many countries building non-nuclear submarines, including the Swedes, Chinese designers have not adopted X-form rudders. Instead the traditional cruciform arrangement is retained. The upper rudder now has a towed array sonar (TAS) cable running through it. This may hint at a significant sensor upgrade for the class as previous Yuans had not been reported with towed arrays.
While comparisons with the Swedish A-26 are natural, it is worth noting that Chinese designers have come up with similar ideas in the past. Angled faces where added to the upper section of aType-035 Ming class submarine in around 2010. Only a small part was modified so it wouldn’t have had much effect when the boat was fully surfaced. But it may have been beneficial when only this section was above the waves.
It’s also too long ago to suggest that it was directly related to the new submarine, but it shows that the thinking was already there. So with this in mind observers should not rush to brand the new boat a copy of the A-26.
Overall the Swedish A-26 is a less compromised design, while the Chinese one is constrained by the pre-existing structure of the Yuan class. In essence it is a radical reshaping of the sail and, to an extent the casing, but still on the same frame.
Potent Submarine
This does not take away from the potential potency of the new submarine. But it does cast it as an iterative improvement of the Yuan Class rather than an all-new submarine.Overall the new boat is approximately the same length as the earlier Yuans. This suggests that it hasn’t had an extra compartment added to accommodate vertical launch tubes for missiles. Or some radically new power plant.
These submarines are also equipped with Air independent Power (AIP). This likely uses a closed-cycle Stirling engine, similar to that on the A-26 class, to power the submarine when submerged. This means that it doesn’t have to snorkel to run its diesel generators, to recharge the batteries. Being able to run submerged for much longer greatly increases stealth. The trade-off is that the AIP generates less power so the submarine has to move slowly.
Note that the AIP powers the electric motor directly. It is a common misunderstanding that it recharges the batteries in lieu of the diesel generator. For this reason the diesels are retained.
There is speculation that China may have fitted lithium-ion batteries. These offer a much greater power density and may even make AIP unnecessary. However experts cannot agree and it is a cae of wait and see,
Like previous Yuan Class boats it is likely to be armed with a range of weapons including wire guided torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and mines. And there is the possibly that it can carry land-attack cruise missiles, shot out through the torpedo tubes.
The new submarine may be experimental, or possibly for export, so there is lots more that we do not know. The element of mystique is partly what will keep observers watching it more closely than other types.
The design is the same concept. It is applying the same principles of physics but they are engineered with differences and obviously are not 1:1 identical. The Airbuses, Boeings, Tupolevs, Mitsubishis, Embraers, Bombardiers etc are design using the same principles and often have specific sections engineered based on the same concepts and so look very similar but are also not 1:1 identical.
There is no point in saying it is different to the A26. That's obvious and expected. It is however applying the same concept, something the Swedish almost definitely started implementing first (if not discovered) and something that has been considered worthwhile by the Chinese sub designers and mastered by the Chinese to implement their own. A European cannon uses the same concept and principles as a Chinese cannon that preceded it but it doesn't mean much when we consider the industrial ability behind those efforts and their definite differences. It means even less in combat.
What's interesting is that this 039 upgrade has appeared so quickly. China doesn't show much until the thing is ready and have obviously long been in development. The only exception to this rule was J-20 and the railgun test platform where prototypes (albeit flyable ones) made public long before service. But it also must be said that the J-20 has been in the works LONG before its prototype debut and the same with railguns where China has disclosed railgun projects going as far back as 1990s (probably earlier).
It's clear that this 039 has been in development for many years and either the Chinese team is just that much quicker at implementing and delivering the product or intel leak/espionage sourced details early on during early phase of Swedish development, or this has been well understood by many for a long time and we're just seeing implementation of a sail design that will become relatively common and have convergent design details just like stealthy ship superstructures, 5th gen fighter radomes or rocket geometries or airliner wings etc etc and so on.
One thing is for sure, China is quick at implementing and adopting good ideas wherever they are. It makes it that much easier to accuse and suspect it of xyz but then years and even decades later, the latercomers start implementing the same things (AMCA, Visukputnam class, Buran, VTOL fighters, and so on). It often makes the dimwits believe China is unable to do the same leading edge, groundbreaking work (which none of the ones outside the west and east asia are even remotely capable of yet anyway) but now we are starting to see evidence how untrue that is - quantum computing, 5G telecomm, 6G telecomm, IOT, quantum comms, battery tech, energy (comprehensively dominated by China except nuclear), hypersonic vehicles, shipbuilding (equal first with Korea) even semiconductor research and design but not fab ... yet.
There is no point in saying it is different to the A26. That's obvious and expected. It is however applying the same concept, something the Swedish almost definitely started implementing first (if not discovered) and something that has been considered worthwhile by the Chinese sub designers and mastered by the Chinese to implement their own. A European cannon uses the same concept and principles as a Chinese cannon that preceded it but it doesn't mean much when we consider the industrial ability behind those efforts and their definite differences. It means even less in combat.
What's interesting is that this 039 upgrade has appeared so quickly. China doesn't show much until the thing is ready and have obviously long been in development. The only exception to this rule was J-20 and the railgun test platform where prototypes (albeit flyable ones) made public long before service. But it also must be said that the J-20 has been in the works LONG before its prototype debut and the same with railguns where China has disclosed railgun projects going as far back as 1990s (probably earlier).
It's clear that this 039 has been in development for many years and either the Chinese team is just that much quicker at implementing and delivering the product or intel leak/espionage sourced details early on during early phase of Swedish development, or this has been well understood by many for a long time and we're just seeing implementation of a sail design that will become relatively common and have convergent design details just like stealthy ship superstructures, 5th gen fighter radomes or rocket geometries or airliner wings etc etc and so on.
One thing is for sure, China is quick at implementing and adopting good ideas wherever they are. It makes it that much easier to accuse and suspect it of xyz but then years and even decades later, the latercomers start implementing the same things (AMCA, Visukputnam class, Buran, VTOL fighters, and so on). It often makes the dimwits believe China is unable to do the same leading edge, groundbreaking work (which none of the ones outside the west and east asia are even remotely capable of yet anyway) but now we are starting to see evidence how untrue that is - quantum computing, 5G telecomm, 6G telecomm, IOT, quantum comms, battery tech, energy (comprehensively dominated by China except nuclear), hypersonic vehicles, shipbuilding (equal first with Korea) even semiconductor research and design but not fab ... yet.
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