Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread

[sinophilia]

Uh okay no, where did this come from?
Calm down.
Formal warning -- one month ban by next infraction.
Jeez.

Where did it come from? The insane and unjustified racism by Westerners which is becoming more evident each passing day.

I apologize for that one comment being so off-topic but I don't think my opinion is that radical when it concerns their treatment of those non-Whites they consider to be potential competitors.

It's starting to piss me off but I'll take my opinions to a more relevant thread.

 

[Blitzo]

Where did it come from? The insane and unjustified racism by Westerners which is becoming more evident each passing day.

I apologize for that one comment being so off-topic but I don't think my opinion is that radical when it concerns their treatment of those non-Whites they consider to be potential competitors.

It's starting to piss me off but I'll take my opinions to a more relevant thread.

Whether your opinion and sentiments are radical or not radical, and whether they're justified or not justified, isn't the point.

The point is that expressing them in the way you did is both off topic for this thread, as well as being ethnically hostile and using swear words, in a manner that is not welcome in this forum.

Yes, there is geopolitical competition and the media landscape as you've discovered is not an equal one given that reason, and expecting honesty is indeed too much.
If you're pissed off, fine.
But don't share those sentiments on SDF in the way that you did, thank you very much.
We expect better.


Finally, as a further note -- when moderators write in blue or red coloured text, those are posts in positions as moderators, and are not to be quoted or replied to, as described in forum rules (regardless of whether there are rhetorical questions in the post or whatever).
As you are relatively new here, I will not penalize you for it, but going forwards, be aware of that point.

 

[plawolf]

Could the new sub be a tech tester/demonstrator, perhaps for next gen SSN tech, rather than being the first of a new class of yuan SSKs maybe?

 

[Blitzo]

Could the new sub be a tech tester/demonstrator, perhaps for next gen SSN tech, rather than being the first of a new class of yuan SSKs maybe?

Doubtful.
This is a hull which is clearly derived from the 039A/B family and very much a full sized proper SSK, and is equipped with certain subsystems (like a towed array sonar on the tailfin) that we've seen on other recent PLAN submarines as well.

More importantly, I can't see any technology that this thing has (or which it likely may field internally) that would be exclusive to an SSN that would require testing on a dedicated new test submarine in the first place. Hydrodynamic advancements, general quietening technologies, new sensors, combat management systems, weapons etc are all things that would benefit a new production SSK class as much as a new production SSN class.

And the things which are SSN exclusive (like a new reactor, perhaps new propulsion arrangements, perhaps a new hybrid hull that we've heard about), are not things that we've had any indication of being integrated for this new submarine nor are they necessarily things that would require testing on a dedicated submarine of this size either.


But perhaps the most definitive factor to keep in mind, is that we've been expecting 039C to emerge now for years, and this new submarine has been referred to as that by the Chinese PLA watching community.


Personally, I'm surprised as to how this submarine could be considered as anything other than 039C, given our long anticipation of a new SSK class of that name, as well as its obvious heritage from the 039A/B line.

 

[Tam]

Did they also redesigned the flood ports?

Yes they did. The shoulder ballast tanks have obviously been redesigned.

Previously I would assume the shoulder ballast tanks would wrap over the top part of the cylindrical inner hull. This time however, there is now a channel between the two ballast tanks for the towed sonar cable, with the hump raised to accommodate the TAS. But instead of having a gentle hump like on the 093A, the new hump extends all the way to the back, the top is flattened and the slopes angled. The shoulder ballast tanks would have to be redesigned in light of the channel and the raised hump height, and this would mean a redesign of the sink holes.

The slopes would be angled for RCS, however what's on the sail probably isn't for RCS reduction but hydrodynamic management like what plawolf said earlier.

 

[ansy1968]

@Bltizo @Tam Sir a question since its a new YUAN variant will it retain the double hull or it may deviate to a single hull? I had been reading here in SDF that next generation sub will have a single hull configuration?

 

[Blitzo]

@Bltizo @Tam Sir a question since its a new YUAN variant will it retain the double hull or it may deviate to a single hull? I had been reading here in SDF that next generation sub will have a single hull configuration?

This 039C is overwhelmingly likely to adopt the same double hull configuration of its 039A/B predecessors -- the geometry of the hull that we see is very consistent with a derivative of 039A/B. If it were single hull, we'd see some fair more differences.

We expect the new SSN class (09V) to use a hybrid hull (elements of a single hull and partially double hull in areas), and some of the export SSKs were also single hull in design, but for 039C we never had any definitive rumours pointing in one direction or another.


Also, a PSA for everyone, I think it would be far more accurate to use the actual PLA designations for these submarines -- 039A, 039B etc, rather than the NATO designations.

 

[by78]

Did they also redesigned the flood ports?

Too grainy to tell for certain, especially from this angle (with compressed perspective of the ports).

 

[Tam]

@Bltizo @Tam Sir a question since its a new YUAN variant will it retain the double hull or it may deviate to a single hull? I had been reading here in SDF that next generation sub will have a single hull configuration?

Double hull. Think of it. You can retain the same inner pressure hull, but you can always make quick and flexible changes on the outer hydrodynamic hull. In fact I think the Yuan's inner pressure hull is derived from the Song's, perhaps a lengthened and evolved version from the Song's, hence they share the same 039 designation. Double hull allows the submarine to be malleable, you can make design changes to the outer hull which changes its appearance.

With a single hull, you only have one single pressurized hull and ballast tanks attached to it, either at the waist like in USN nuclear subs, or at the shoulder ballast tanks, like European designs. This thick, high tensile steel needs to be roll pressed, and it gets more difficult to achieve more complex surface geometries for higher hydrodynamic efficiency. That requires higher tech machines to do this. Not a problem for the West, and likely not a problem for China now. Back in the Soviet Union, it was much simpler to do a non hydrodynamic pressure hull with a simple geometry like a cylinder, and then build a complex geometric form around this cylinder with much thinner and malleable plates that can be pressed with lower tech machinery. This inherited into China and goes on until today.

China surely have the machinery today to do single hull submarines, and CSIC (then) offered small coastal submarines for export with single hull designs. Even the Russians have caught up with this, as the Lada/Amur class SSKs are single hulled.

But why still give up the advantages of double hull? The main advantage of single hull is you have more efficient use of space, but some modern submarines are hybrids, such as the Soryu class. Double hull allows you to quickly incorporate external changes to the outer hull while preserving the proven inner hull. That's what we are seeing here with the 039A -> 039B -> 039C.

 

[Tam]

Could the new sub be a tech tester/demonstrator, perhaps for next gen SSN tech, rather than being the first of a new class of yuan SSKs maybe?

Given the size as being the same as the Yuan, high chance its a new variant. The sub spotted in Jiangnan is highly likely a sister to this, making it a pair. This sub is high chance its PLAN's, not a Thai or Pakistani export, as export subs should have a high publicity event when the keel is laid and there is none of this for this sub held at Jiangnan, and which if it did so would have been months ago. If this second sub is launched into the water with zero publicity, then possibility moves to 100% PLAN.

If we are going to see some tech demonstrating with SSN tech, it would be on Bohai and involve a 093 submarine, like that submarine with a notch at the sail.