Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
What is this nonsense?

As you were writing this did it ever occur to you to verify how submarines were able to use single towed arrays for locating targets for almost half a century, ever since USS Los Angeles entered service in 1976?

Take a sheet of paper. Draw a line with points along it - this is your linear array and your hydrophones. Now draw a source of sound and depict the soundwaves as concentric circles propagating from the source. As the circles reach the linear array there is a visible delay in when each hydrophone registers the signal. That delay allows the computer to calculate the position of the source.

As you will see with sufficiently long array there are only two cases where a linear array can't determine direction. Those two cases are axial symmetries - left or right and up or down - when the spherical wavefront propagates with the same speed toward each end of the array. There is no single mathematical solution. But there is a practical one.

To remain undefined the source would have to be exactly in the middle of the array and stay there. As soon as the source shifts its position relative to the array there is a delay on the hydrophones. As soon as the hydrophone position shifts relative to the source there's a delay. All the sub needs is to speed up or slow down a little or change direction.

Here your argument would likely be that it still doesn't resolve for location above or below the array. Except it does.

Sound propagates in water at 1,5km/s which is a delay of 0,1 millisecond per 15cm. Humans are capable of tracking tenths of a second with some precision and are aware of passage of time measured in the hundreths but are not able to track it. For a machine tenth of a millisecond is trivial. So all you need to do is move your array at an angle downwards or upwards. This requires a change of depth of as little as 50m at a slow pace to register some delay on an array that is hundreds of meters long. Similarly if the source changes depth that will register on an array.

Furthermore sound in water propagates with different speed depending on depth:

298px-Underwater_speed_of_sound.svg.png


Those differences are minimal but sufficient for a machine calculating delays on a long towed array. The sub simply dives deeper and compares the results.

But ultimately the main reason why it is not a problem is the time that sonar requires for measurement. Sonar - and in particular passive sonar - is not precise, especially at extreme distances. Therefore detecting targets requires a completely different amount of time for a submarine than it does for an aircraft. Submarines detect and identify targets over hours, not seconds or minutes. You never see that in a movie because it would make for one hell of a boring movie.

It is extremely unlikely that two sources mirror each other's course for such long time at extreme distances - which is only when towed arrays are used. If it's a closer distance then the towed array is retracted regardless of whether the direction is known or not and the sub switches to using bow array or flank arrays. Those are planar and not linear and have no problems detecting position in space.

And that's entirely besides the modern engineering solution of having the array consist of clusters of hydrophones arranged asymmetrically and electronically gated so that received signal can be filtered depending on extremely minimal delays across 10-20 cm of relative distance between hydrophones. The filtering is cyclical turning the hydrophones off and on in sequence and that is enough to establish general direction.

And no, sonar doesn't work on the same principle as surround sound system in home cinema because the "r" in sonar stands for ranging. Sonar is short for "sound navigation and ranging". If you think surround sound has "ranging" you need to see a psychiatrist. Take a seat right next to the people who brought proof that 5g gave them covid.
Once again our resident super "smart sth" showing off the knowledge beyond comprehension.
 
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MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Once again our resident super "smart sth" showing off the knowledge beyond comprehension.

I don't know which is worse: the fact that you can't understand high school geometry or the fact that you are incapable of admitting that you made a mistake or the fact that when proven wrong you are incapable of stopping yourself from attacking the person who proved you wrong.

Arguably I could have written my post in a less confrontational manner but you were making blatantly false claims on a subject which you obviously haven't researched. You were deceiving others for the purpose of lazy self-aggrandisement. This type of entitled and malicious behaviour is called "narcissism". My comment caused what is known as "narcissistic injury" and your reply to me is a textbook example of "narcissistic rage".

In case you think this is also "knowledge beyond comprehension" you can easily look up the definitions and explanations of these terms (narcissism, narcissistic rage, narcissistic injury, narcissistic supply) online and find thorough explanations with examples and references to medical literature. They are not subjective claims that anyone can make but fairly rigid objective assessments of human behaviour with clear diagnostic criteria.

This is also why any attempt at being polite in my criticism would be a waste of time. What caused the narcissistic injury was not my snarky remarks in the post but the fact that you have been publicly exposed as lacking the very expertise that you claimed to have. My only choices were to ignore your false claims and allow you to mislead others or correct you and risk your hostility.

I couldn't care less about what you think of me but as a person who has come to SDF in search of constructive knowledge I consider myself obliged to help out people who have similar intention while coming here. I believe in the duty to uphold the environment for others in the same state as I would expect to encounter it. You caused a problem and I corrected it. It wasn't personal for me and you weren't the subject of my post. But it was nothing but personal for you and clearly you have seen yourself as the target of my comment.

At this point it's better if we stop our exchange here. You're not capable of engaging in good faith and I have nothing more to add having explained myself and my conduct towards you. I only hope the technical explanation in the previous post was sufficiently clear to prevent anyone from being misled by your claims.

Hopefully you yourself have also learnt something here and won't be making the same errors in the future.

EOT.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't know which is worse: the fact that you can't understand high school geometry or the fact that you are incapable of admitting that you made a mistake or the fact that when proven wrong you are incapable of stopping yourself from attacking the person who proved you wrong.

Arguably I could have written my post in a less confrontational manner but you were making blatantly false claims on a subject which you obviously haven't researched. You were deceiving others for the purpose of lazy self-aggrandisement. This type of entitled and malicious behaviour is called "narcissism". My comment caused what is known as "narcissistic injury" and your reply to me is a textbook example of "narcissistic rage".

In case you think this is also "knowledge beyond comprehension" you can easily look up the definitions and explanations of these terms (narcissism, narcissistic rage, narcissistic injury, narcissistic supply) online and find thorough explanations with examples and references to medical literature. They are not subjective claims that anyone can make but fairly rigid objective assessments of human behaviour with clear diagnostic criteria.

This is also why any attempt at being polite in my criticism would be a waste of time. What caused the narcissistic injury was not my snarky remarks in the post but the fact that you have been publicly exposed as lacking the very expertise that you claimed to have. My only choices were to ignore your false claims and allow you to mislead others or correct you and risk your hostility.

I couldn't care less about what you think of me but as a person who has come to SDF in search of constructive knowledge I consider myself obliged to help out people who have similar intention while coming here. I believe in the duty to uphold the environment for others in the same state as I would expect to encounter it. You caused a problem and I corrected it. It wasn't personal for me and you weren't the subject of my post. But it was nothing but personal for you and clearly you have seen yourself as the target of my comment.

At this point it's better if we stop our exchange here. You're not capable of engaging in good faith and I have nothing more to add having explained myself and my conduct towards you. I only hope the technical explanation in the previous post was sufficiently clear to prevent anyone from being misled by your claims.

Hopefully you yourself have also learnt something here and won't be making the same errors in the future.

EOT.
IMO, the worst is someone like you always talk as if you are superior than others. That is called arrogance. But I don't expect you to agree considerring your repeated behaviour.

Why didn't you write in a non confrontational manner and prove me wrong by quoting scientific fact? Your length posts are only words made up by yourself, they don't count.

The "false claim" of "directional" capability is from a 2009 research paper titled "Research on a conjugate cancelling method of port and starboard ambiguity for twin-line array". The subject is an old one that you should have known if you were knowledgable as you pretend to be. This is yet another evidence of all your BS posts.

摘要: 左右舷分辨问题是拖曳线列阵研究的一个重要问题。本文通过研究平行双线阵的归一化波束输出函数,得到了一种通过对双线阵常规波束形成的输出进行幅度和相位加权来提高左右舷模糊抑制能力的方法。该方法通过分析双线阵的归一化波束输出函数,获得补偿权值,并利用双阵波束输出的幅度加权和相位补偿来抵消目标共轭(镜像)方向的输出,以达到左右舷抑制比最大的目的。数值仿真和海试结果表明,本方法简单实用,能较好的提高双线阵的左右舷抑制比,特别在宽带条件下效果更加明显。
Abstract: It is always an important problem of distinguishing the target's port or starboard in sonar signal processing of towed array.This paper presents a method that can improve the ability of restraining the port and starboard ambiguity via equalizing the amplitude and phase of the conventional beam forming output based on the unitary beam forming function.This method gets the weight value from the unitary beam forming function and then uses them to equalize the phase of the output of the conventional beam forming to cancelling the conjugate (mirror) output and get maximized port and starboard restrain ratio.The data simulation and sea trail data analysis proved that this is a simple and practical method and gave better result in improving the restrain ratio,especially on wide band condition.


At last, you attacked a scientic fact because it was said by me. Apparently you are not here for truth and fact, but for ego. And in order to "win" a debate you resort to personal attack and straight-faced fabrication. I usually would not bother to waste my time responding to your lengthy mumble jumble post, but since you repeatedly resort to personal attack and pretentious behaviour, you will continue to get what you deserve.
 
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