Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
I do see the merits of all the points presented. And I believe that arriving at a suitable middle ground for both sides of the debate is possible.



Firstly, we have seen the viability of SSKs armed with VLS tubes, thanks to real-life examples of the ROKN's Dosan Ahn Changho SSKs. China's own 032 SSK/B test platform too is another demonstration that conventionaly-powered platform equipped with VLS tubes is very much possible.

On the other hand, unlike the ROKN (and soon the JMSDF) - The PLAN is fully capable of (and expected to) field multiple units of SSNs that are equipped with either individual VLS tubes (for the 093B) or multipack VLS cells (for the 095 onwards), of which them being more advanced and potent subsurface warfare platforms for the true blue IndoPac.

In addition, a recent declaration by the PLAN means that SSKs would still be an integral part of the PLAN's subsurface fleet, albeit with reducing importance compared to their nuclear counterparts for obvious reasons, going forward.

Hence, having VLS tubes on SSKs may not be a much-needed capability uplift for the PLAN. This is compounded by the fact that SSKs are naturally smaller than SSNs, which presents greater degree of restrictions on how the SSKs can be designed to fit vertical-launched missiles of how big of a size, etc.



Combining all of the points and adjusting per necessary consideration - Having VLS tubes on SSKs isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the capability associated with it certainly shouldn't be overhyped.

I do see the potential for the likes of 039C SSKs to be lengthened such that 6-8 VLS tubes can be fitted behind the sail. However, obvious restrictions apply - The missiles armed on these SSKs would not be comparable to those missiles armed onboard newer and future SSNs of the PLAN (for instance, whereas the 093Bs and 095s can be armed with YJ-21s or future YJ-XXs, future SSKs would only be armed with YJ-18s or YJ-15s (should the rumour about supersonic-capable be true) at most.)

Provided the scope and range of operations that the SSKs are expected to operate in (namely, within and around the 1IC) - Long-range strike missiles isn't particularly a must need for them anyway. Therefore, having long-range strike capabilities should only be a complimentary feature for SSKs, instead of a compulsory or decisive feature. They are still largely ambushers, after all.



On the flipside, beyond the idea of adding extra degrees of endurance if not VLS tubes with the lengthening of a new model SSK hull recently seen at Wuchang - Given the inherent characteristics of SSKs (which translates to the ability to actually "hug" the shallow seabed floor terrain found across much of the waters within 1IC, something that SSNs are inferior in), there are actually greater merits for the SSKs to be equipped with either vertical launch tubes that can launch small-sized UUVs, USVs and UAVs (for reconnaisance, picketing and/or launching countermeasures against smaller ASW units), and/or specialized compartments for housing small to mid-sized UUVs that can be launched and retrived underwater for conducting seabed warfare (such as tapping/cutting seabed communication lines and laying seabed smart mines).

And TBH, compared to installing VLS tubes for strike missiles - Such capability (of housing and operating unmanned units) does sound like an idea that is actually better suited for SSKs.



In the meantime, I must note that should the PLAN decides to pivot to an all-SSK-N fleet for the conventional portion of her underwater fleet in the future (which I do hope to be the case) - The above suggestions/proposals for either VLS tubes or compartments/launchers for drones onboard the SSK-Ns will definitely increase in viability and feasibility, given the endurance and sustained/sprint speeds of the SSK-Ns would be leagues ahead of all conventional SSKs.

One way to go would be for the SSK-Ns to have modularizable compartments that can be fitted with a strike module (i.e. VLS tubes), a common module (i.e. launch tubes for drones) or a seabed module (i.e. compartments for UUVs), depending on what roles are the individual SSK-Ns getting assigned for the fleet.



Last but not least, there is one more thing that I'd like to respond to:
There is also the question of impact itself. What 11-15 missiles (10 from the VLS farm and 5 from the tubes) would achieve against a CSG? Probably nothing.

TBH, even with SSNs, each armed with 18-24 YJ-21s in its VLS tubes + 6 more YJ-18s from its torpedo tubes - It can still be quite challenging for them to break though the integrated defense system of a USN CSG (or worse, a CBG), especially with multiple units of Flight 2 and 3 Burkes armed with SMs guarding the sole CVN in the group, combined with the E-2C/Ds + carrier-based fighters armed with AAMs.

The point which I'd like to bring forth is this: Unless the sole SSN manage to catch a so-called "target of opportunity" (namely, a lone or two surface warships out in the wide open ocean with little to no friendly cover in the area) - Going against peer opponent CSG/CBG with integrated, networked defensive systems isn't exactly feasible anymore. Technically, you could still peel at the CSG "cabbage" by targetting the outermost enemy surface warships (i.e. DDG or FFG) first before working closer towards the core of the "cabbage" (i.e. CVN) - But going against an entire CSG/CBG today and into the future certainly demands closely-collaborated efforts by multiple parties across different domains.

Therefore, it is with this purview that I do actually envision the return of the wolfpack tactic - But fully-adapted for the 21st-century, and includes way greater participations than just mere lone-wolf SSNs.
 
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by78

General
Some nice images to mark the mid-autumn festival.

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Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
screenshot-2024-09-26-at-14-11-30.jpg


So, CNN got some better resolution images of that mystery sub. And, frankly, the whole X rudder thing is less pronounced here. This image makes it look as if it's questionable whether that's an X rudder at all. the span of the rudders is some 10 meters. That's really not much more than the span on the previous gen SSK. (which is harder to measure through the water but is around 10-11m)

If a crucifix form was rotated by 45 degrees, its span would decrease by some 30%.

Anyway, the entire sub is some 81m long. With a 17m long stretch from bow to start of sail and 45m stretch from end of sail to start of rudders.

For comparison, previous gen SSK are some 76 m long, with 17m stretch from bow to start of sail and 40m stretch from end of sail to start of rudders.
 

Blitzo

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screenshot-2024-09-26-at-14-11-30.jpg


So, CNN got some better resolution images of that mystery sub. And, frankly, the whole X rudder thing is less pronounced here. This image makes it look as if it's questionable whether that's an X rudder at all. the span of the rudders is some 10 meters. That's really not much more than the span on the previous gen SSK. (which is harder to measure through the water but is around 10-11m)

If a crucifix form was rotated by 45 degrees, its span would decrease by some 30%.

Anyway, the entire sub is some 81m long. With a 17m long stretch from bow to start of sail and 45m stretch from end of sail to start of rudders.

For comparison, previous gen SSK are some 76 m long, with 17m stretch from bow to start of sail and 40m stretch from end of sail to start of rudders.

I think it's pretty consistent with an x-rudder -- the portside upper x rudder is obvious, while the starboard upper x rudder is less obvious due to the angle of the sun causing it to blend with the shadow it casts.

However the easiest way to determine what kind of rudder it has (or doesn't have) is the the very clear lack of a vertical tail.


I'm not sure how you can estimate the width of the rudders on the 039A/B/C -- it's well below the waterline.
 

Totoro

Major
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I'm not sure how you can estimate the width of the rudders on the 039A/B/C -- it's well below the waterline.
There are images on GE where rudders are still visible through the water or even when they're very near the waterline. Hainan island base for example.
 

Blitzo

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There are images on GE where rudders are still visible through the water or even when they're very near the waterline. Hainan island base for example.

I assume that you agree first of all that on this mystery submarine (whatever it is), it does have X tails.

As for measuring the rudder width, that's a fair bit of error in that method. Considering the differences we're talking about, a difference of a couple of meters puts the whole thing into questionable use territory.


The likelihood of them adopting the same actual rudders on the 039A/B/C and simply rotating them 45 degrees is also low; there's no reason to think they're necessarily related in that regard.
 

Totoro

Major
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I don't know if the submarine has X tails. It might have them, it might not. So far we had two images and evidence so far is for me, personally, inconclusive.
I find the whole thing quite interesting, obviously. That's why I posted the image. Will follow the matter closely, hoping for additional images. The fact we're seeing a visibly larger submarine emerge from conventional submarine shipyard is much more interesting and relevant, in my opinion, than whether those are X tails or not.
 

Blitzo

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I don't know if the submarine has X tails. It might have them, it might not. So far we had two images and evidence so far is for me, personally, inconclusive.
I find the whole thing quite interesting, obviously. That's why I posted the image. Will follow the matter closely, hoping for additional images. The fact we're seeing a visibly larger submarine emerge from conventional submarine shipyard is much more interesting and relevant, in my opinion, than whether those are X tails or not.

If you genuinely think the two pictures don't show x tails, then I'm a bit confused.

The lack of a vertical tail, and the visibility of the upper x tails (which wouldn't be visible in that manner if they were normal cross) seems rather cut and dry to me.


As for the overall submarine itself, yes its status is unclear but we aren't going to get any clarity on it for quite a while.
 

para80

Junior Member
Registered Member
The rudders are quite evidently IMO canted. Incidentally the Pakistani Hangor-class (Type 039B) boat is located near this new boat in several pictures, allowing us some instructive direct comparisons. We also have several shots where we can see just the top of the canted rudders peaking out of the water, something obviously impossible for a conventional tail. Last but not least the rudders are painted black. Similar to vertical controls and unlike horizontal planes which are painted red.GTkfkqLW8AAYqu6.jpg
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