Not wanting to underestimate the PLAN and China's ship building capabilities is why I'm questioning whether this new sub is a mini-SSN, based on available & limited evidence so far.
Bottomline, time will tell us the truth...
Last edited:
Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Not wanting to underestimate the PLAN and China's ship building capabilities is why I'm questioning whether this new sub is a mini-SSN, based on available & limited evidence so far.
Bottomline, time will tell us the truth...
Is there any definitive proof that Yuan class can use torpedo launched cruise and antiship missiles? Because if they have that capability, their usefullness will increase way more compared to not being able to. It would change the platform from just being useful inside first island chain to being able to make surprise missile strikes 100-150 km out of that.
The Yuan class was built several years after China had bought the Kilo submarines from Russia. They also cloned the Kalibr. So you can pretty much be certain the Yuan class has those.
Do the kilo class sold to China have torpedo launched missiles?
You mean a cruise missile launched from a torpedo tube. Project 636M Kilo class submarines have them.
China should have 8 such submarines.
These would be export versions of the Kalibr. Basically the same specs as the Russian ones except they have shorter range because of MTCR limitations.
Notice the 533mm diameter. They all were designed to fit into torpedo tubes.
The first one (3M-54E) is designed to hit targets with air defenses like ships. It has subsonic cruise speed but speeds up to Mach 3 when it is near the target. It has a smaller warhead. The next two (3M-54E1, 3M-14E) are designed to hit ground targets. Subsonic but have a larger warhead and longer range. And the last two (91RE1, 91RTE2) are missiles carrying torpedoes which can be used either against ships or submarines. They are launched and fly supersonic then they drop a torpedo onto the water.
China should have 8 such submarines.
These would be export versions of the Kalibr. Basically the same specs as the Russian ones except they have shorter range because of MTCR limitations.
Notice the 533mm diameter. They all were designed to fit into torpedo tubes.
The first one (3M-54E) is designed to hit targets with air defenses like ships. It has subsonic cruise speed but speeds up to Mach 3 when it is near the target. It has a smaller warhead. The next two (3M-54E1, 3M-14E) are designed to hit ground targets. Subsonic but have a larger warhead and longer range. And the last two (91RE1, 91RTE2) are missiles carrying torpedoes which can be used either against ships or submarines. They are launched and fly supersonic then they drop a torpedo onto the water.
Last edited:
Both 3M54E and 3M54E1 are AShM. They both use the ARGS-54 radar seeker optimised to hit surface targets at sea, hence the designation. The 3M14 uses the ARGS-14 radar seeker optimised for LACM.
My limited understanding is also the initial two 636 boats for PLAN were later refitted to also fire AShM. But I'm not sure as I couldnt find authoritative information on that.
My limited understanding is also the initial two 636 boats for PLAN were later refitted to also fire AShM. But I'm not sure as I couldnt find authoritative information on that.
Well now this is interesting:
The fact that VLS were seen on the 032 increases the chances that the length increase on the new type was for VLS rather than propulsion related. Also, this was new info for me:
The x-form rudders can be seen as a progressive upgrade over the traditional cruciform type found on other Chinese submarines. Although some Chinese extra-large uncrewed underwater vehicles (XLUUVs) already have them. They are generally regarded as better for agility, particularly in shallow water.
The difference isn’t fight winning however and they come with disadvantages as well, particularly in the case of a control jam. For this reason x-form rudders are only slowly being adopted for nuclear submarines whose high speed reduces the margins of error. But this is less of a concern on slower submarines like this one.
The fact that VLS were seen on the 032 increases the chances that the length increase on the new type was for VLS rather than propulsion related. Also, this was new info for me:
The x-form rudders can be seen as a progressive upgrade over the traditional cruciform type found on other Chinese submarines. Although some Chinese extra-large uncrewed underwater vehicles (XLUUVs) already have them. They are generally regarded as better for agility, particularly in shallow water.
The difference isn’t fight winning however and they come with disadvantages as well, particularly in the case of a control jam. For this reason x-form rudders are only slowly being adopted for nuclear submarines whose high speed reduces the margins of error. But this is less of a concern on slower submarines like this one.
If the claim that the new, longer SSK model with X-tail seen at Wuchang in the past few months is armed with VLS cells behind the sail is true - Questions are:
1. How big is the 032 SSB test platform relative to this new SSK model? and
2. What is the diameter of the VLS cells? (I.e. Are those similar to the 850mm UVLS on PLAN DDGs?)
If both of their hulls have largely same the diameter and also share the same 850mm UVLS (albeit naturally in different variants), perhaps the VLS cells can (also) be arranged on the new SSK model in parallel rows instead of just in a single file. This should theoretically allows more VLS cells to be packed onboard than what is illustrated by Sutton, given that the estimated length of the new SSK model does come close to the KSS-III SSKs of the ROKN (of which are armed with 6-10 Hyunmoo 4-4s arranged in two parrallel rows).
(However, I won't expect future PLAN SSKs to be equipped with more than 8 VLS cells - And that the missiles armed won't be as fancy as those on the 052D/DGs and 055s.)
Alternatively - How likely is the lengthened section behind the sail of the new SSK model being a special compartment for housing and upkeeping small to medium-sized UUVs and/or USVs?
Last edited:
I think the PLAN wants to do incremental advance rather than going straight to a X rudder nuclear sub. Incremental advance allows them to test the system to see if it is good..
The next sub is probably a X rudder nuclear sub design.
what he meant by control jam? getting jammed by your opponent?
The next sub is probably a X rudder nuclear sub design.
what he meant by control jam? getting jammed by your opponent?