Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread

[Blitzo]

2 new variant submarine in these 1 or 2 years-- one features a distinctive angled sail (probably the 039c submarine) and this recent unidentified one with a X rudder tail.

I looked up. There's no U.S submarine with X rudder tail except for the Columbia class, which is still under construction.

So China is ahead of the game with these two new features. I think China has caught on to the world leading submarine tech pretty quick.

Having x tails on submarines is a relatively more modern feature among in service submarines but it is also not that decisive among the other major subsystems and features of submarines.

I certainly wouldn't say this is something worthy of being described as being "ahead" of the US on because it just isn't that important to begin with and also because as others mentioned, many other nations have applied x tails on their submarines too.


The x tail feature is a "huh neat" feature but I wouldn't claim it as anything much more than that and certainly would be careful to not portray it as some sort of important submarine technology.

 

[Jason_]

2 new variant submarine in these 1 or 2 years-- one features a distinctive angled sail (probably the 039c submarine) and this recent unidentified one with a X rudder tail.

I looked up. There's no U.S submarine with X rudder tail except for the Columbia class, which is still under construction.

So China is ahead of the game with these two new features. I think China has caught on to the world leading submarine tech pretty quick.

The benefit of the X rudder is that when turning all four rubbers can contribute, whereas for traditional rudders only two of the four rudders are used. This means that to generate the same amount torque, X rudders can be made smaller, which reduces drag. Conversely, X rudders of the same size as traditional rudder makes the sub more manueverable, especially at low speed.

A major drawback of the X rudder is that it makes it much harder to pierce through the ice of the Arctic Ocean. The US and Russia expect their SSNs to operate under ice and so they kept the traditional rudders.

 

[bebops]

The benefit of the X rudder is that when turning all four rubbers can contribute, whereas for traditional rudders only two of the four rudders are used. This means that to generate the same amount torque, X rudders can be made smaller, which reduces drag. Conversely, X rudders of the same size as traditional rudder makes the sub more manueverable, especially at low speed.

A major drawback of the X rudder is that it makes it much harder to pierce through the ice of the Arctic Ocean. The US and Russia expect their SSNs to operate under ice and so they kept the traditional rudders.

It is not a nuclear submarine. You can read what that Sutton guy said.

He said "X-form rudders are generally seen as superior to traditional cruciform rudders". It has stealthy features.

It is also 5-7 meter longer so it could be a new class of submarine.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

For a nuclear sub, especially a new type with a pretty innovative mini-nuke reactor, I would presume all that would be done under roof, away from radiation sniffers, satellites, prying eyes, etc., until it's ready for trial.

Not saying that it's not mini-nuke, just that its launching would seem pretty "lackadaisical or casual", if it is indeed a new nuke type.

Not really. It's all part and parcel of the construction processes for any submarine, both conventional and nuclear-powered.

Unless said submarine has the utmost significance as a very special/critical mission platform that would warrant extra degree of confidentiality (which I don't think that this particular SSK(-N) is).

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

It is not a nuclear submarine. You can read what that Sutton guy said.

Sutton said that based on what he currently understands about Wuchang (i.e. the shipyard has no history of constructing ships or boats with marine nuclear propulsion system).

However, based on what we've gathered from sources on the Chinese side of the PLA-watching community so far, Wuchang (together with Jiangnan) are likely to be the sites for the rumored SSK-N construction in the coming years (if not already).

Such sources is very likely to be out of reach for Sutton, mainly due to language and access barriers. If anything, he'd have said the same thing about Dalian 10 years ago.

Of course, this isn't to say that the new SSK with X-rudder tail we saw at Wuchang since April this year is definitely an SSK-N. Although a couple notable PLA watchers based in China seemed to already indicate that (SSK-N spotted at Wuchang) to be the case as early as May this year - Until more concrete information comes out that would further verify and confirm such claims and findings - We'd like to keep such findings under the KIV status for the time being.

 

[OppositeDay]

Sutton said that based on what he currently understands about Wuchang (which has no history of constructing ships or boats with marine nuclear propulsion system).

However, based on what we have gathered from sources on the Chinese internet so far (such as Weibo), Wuchang (together with Jiangnan) are very likely to be the sites for the rumored SSK-N construction.

Such sources is very likely to be out of reach of Sutton, mainly due to language and access barriers. If anything, he would be saying the same regarding Dalian 10 years ago.

Of course, this isn't to say that the new SSK with X-rudder tail we saw at Wuchang since April this year is definitely an SSK-N. Though some notable PLA watchers based in China seemed to already indicated that (SSK-N spotted at Wuchang) to be the case as early as May this year - Yet, until more concrete information comes out that would further verify and confirm such findings - We'd like to keep such findings under the KIV status for the time being.

What are the contamination risks involved in building nuclear submarines? Given China's caution over building even Gen III nuclear reactors inland I'd be surprised if Wuchang builds nuclear subs. Unless it's some super safe Gen IV reactor.

 

[gelgoog]

What are the contamination risks involved in building nuclear submarines? Given China's caution over building even Gen III nuclear reactors inland I'd be surprised if Wuchang builds nuclear subs. Unless it's some super safe Gen IV reactor.

There are no risks until you actually fuel the reactor and turn it on.

 

[para80]

Re X-tails on US boats the reason we havent seen them yet mostly boil down to their longer recapitalization cycles since the 1990s. As noted, its not per se a dramatic feature and more something you build into a cleansheet design. Also not sure where the notion comes from that its an issue for under-ice ops, because that is not accurate. The rudder comes up in thin ice or stays below in thick ice. Its inconsequential for actually breaking ice. The Columbia SSBN of course will have an X-tail and I fully expect SSN-X, whenever it arrives, to also have it.

Sorry for minor OT but I think feature wise this context is a little relevant.

 

[pkj]

Not really. It's all part and parcel of the construction processes for any submarine, both conventional and nuclear-powered.

Unless said submarine has the utmost significance as a very special/critical mission platform that would warrant extra degree of confidentiality (which I don't think that this particular SSK(-N) is).

If this is indeed a brand new type of mini SSN, being constructed for the 1st time by Wuchang, then it would seem to warrant extra degrees of handling/confidentiality.

These anecdotal evidents point to it being a new SSK and not a new mini-SSN.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

If this is indeed a brand new type of mini SSN, being constructed for the 1st time by Wuchang, then it would seem to warrant extra degrees of handling/

You'd be very wrong to think that the higher echelons of the PLAN and the shipyard have never thought of that (should the decision to build SSK-Ns in Wuchang being true).

/confidentiality.

Pretty much everything that has been labelled "confidential" or "top secret" will definitely be installed and assembled onto the submarine inside the closed assembly halls way before said submarine sees sunlight (i.e. launched). This is the same for pretty much every other submarine constructed today.

What you can see of the submarine today is pretty much all of what they allows you to see, no more than that.

Besides, unlike surface ships - When submarines are launched, their degree of completion are always higher than their surface counterparts by default - Simply because pretty much the entire hull has to be watertight before entering the water (i.e. not much additional installation of components and modules are possible after launch without seriously compromising the hull integrity and performance). They won't spend too much time stationary in water for fitting out before they can start sail for sea trials and commissioning.

Moreover, try think about it from this angle - How often do you actually see photos coming out of Wuchang that are both:
1. Not taken by satellite, and
2. Taken by amateur (i.e. not officially-sanctioned) photographers?

These anecdotal evidents point to it being a new SSK and not a new mini-SSN.

No, that's not how things work. There are much more things that can happen deep inside a hull of a ship or boat that we as amateur outsiders can have no knowledge of.