World News & Breaking News II

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SteelBird

Colonel
Sometimes certain humans may react differently out of fear for their lives. The officer may have done just that when the teen open fire on him and he reacted by firing all his rounds until it is empty to ensure his threat has alleviated his fear. We just have to wait for further investigation because right now everything is pretty much speculative.

OK, I'll put everything aside and discuss only one aspect; the tactical. As TE has explained, let's assume the policeman's gun has 17 rounds, and he empty his magazine at one single target. One question comes to my mind; how many rounds that hit the target? If all 17 rounds hit, then the situation is very bad. First, the policeman was too nervous that he shot until his gun was empty. It would be very a bad situation for him if his opponent was not alone because he won't have a chance to reload. Second, did the policeman mean to kill the boy? If he just want to put him down and get him controlled, the first few round hit is too much enough to disable him.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
A pistol is not a phaser, There is no Stun setting. It's a lethal weapon intended to kill. Police officers only employ them when the situation has gone beyond rational control and demands the highest amount of threat of forces to try and drag it back to control. wounding the Suspect would weaken if not neutralize the threat as the Officer shows in that action he has no intent on backing the threat. Additionally Even if wounded it would not necessarily render enough damage to disable.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Despite the media most of the United states is not Chicago, shootings' are not as common as some might think. Second cops are not delta force. Most police officers don't even want to shoot, and most police departments don't encourage outside training. Most of a police officer's marksmen training is on basic qualifications. Not advanced placement of fire. So a cop shooting is little different from a civilian shooting. In other words there is little other then a basic study of anatomy in high school that tells him where to aim. Additionally if the adversary in this case was attacking adrenaline comes in and the officer is under stress. That means the officer has to decide in the situation if his life is in danger, what skills and tools he has to fight back. Now the story says he was moonlighting as a rentacop that means he might not have had a tazer or some of the other gear issued by his police agency. Additionally it doesn't state if he had a partner. Those can be factors as it would limit is ability to respond and make him more likely to have to respond with lethal force.
Statistically speaking when in a officer involved shooting the number of rounds fired by a police officer is far higher then you would want to believe. When under stress and determined to employ lethal response most officers do clear the magazine. And some perpetrators' in such cases where it has happened have been shot as in the triple digits.
The tools may have changed, the training program altered to include psychological and political elements, the fire power available has increased but the truth is the training of its use has advanced little beyond Barney Fife.

Here again Terran, you're being unfair to police officers in general, we have some very well trained officers at any level of police force in this country, from the village cop, town cop, city cop, county sheriff, federal officer, military policeman, most of the officers I know are very professional, and very polite, the last thing they want to be involved in is a shooting, well next to the last thing. They will defend and protect in this order, their families, their community, their brother or sister officers, and themselves... NO Officer wants to be involved in a deadly force exchange with the "bad guys", but if they are, they are trained to fight to win, most take that responsibility very seriously,,,,

Now, handling a small handgun, whether a concealed carry piece, or duty weapon is very dependant upon discipline, discipline, discipline, and discipline,, what will you do when the BG turns and looks you in the eye with the intent of killing you? If you are a "disciplined" officer, you're training will kick in, you will draw and bring your weapon to the tactical ready, you will quickly pick up the front sight, your finger will be moving from the tactical ready position into the trigger guard, and as your sights line up you will be pressing the trigger, at least twice as your front sight covers the center of mass. Depending on the quick tactical assessment you do over the front sight, if your assailant is folding, crumbling, weapon falling away from your own center of mass, opponent is raising his hands in surrender and dropping his weapon, you will tactically disengage, your finger will rapidly come OFF the trigger and assume a rest position alongside the trigger guard, as you return to "tactical ready", should your opponent resume the fight, you will "re-engage" with the intention of "ending the fight",,,, this is the "best case scenario, if on the other hand your assailant continues his attack on you, rather than disengage, you will assess this as a "failure to stop" and begin the rapid transition of your weapon to the "ocular cranial" region, whereupon reacquiring the front sight you will press the trigger at least twice more, if your hits have been accurate, the fight is over, and your finger is OFF the Trigger and back alongside the trigger guard, if they have not depending on your training you will continue to engage the target, possibly re-acquiring the center of mass, and as others have already alluded to, you will fire until your assailant is "out of action" or your weapon is dry. Hopefully you have been moving to cover all this time and will perform a rapid tactical reload, and slingshot the slide back and allow it to slam back into battery and resume fighting for your life.

This will happen in a Nano-second, you likely will not have heard a single gunshot, due to tack-psychia effect, and you will likely fall apart as the danger subsides, and time will come back into "perpective".

I am not a tactical officer, I have never formally or informally trained or desired to be in this situation, but I have handled many angry, psychotic individuals, several who have resorted to violence, and though the only one with a serious weapon, had an 11 inch hunting knife in a back pack type bag, another individual swung a large cowboy type belt buckle, and throwing an oak desk chair missed me with both objects, and was subdued by my long time "shooting partner", who was also a co-worker, he is indeed a quick man in a fight, and was able to subdue the individual with no harm to me, the individual, or himself........he enjoyed these encounter, and I hated every minute of it, but I tried to remain calm, and de-escalate each situation, and most of the time, it ended there, but I have been hit, I have been bit, and I have been spat upon more times than I can count??? fun, fun

I was always called when a certain large individual was going off, I was scared, but I tried not to show that, remain calm, and try to "talk him down", once when law enforcement arrived he began to cry and beg me not to let them take him, I told him to be calm and sweet, and be nice to the officers and nobody got hurt... so most of the police officers I have dealt with are very fine individuals, they were just as patient, and calm, and managed each situation in a very professional manner. So please, lets not generalize when we are talking about people who spend their lives, taking care of the rest of us,,,,, yes they do make mistakes, and yes they may be afraid too????
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
OK, I'll put everything aside and discuss only one aspect; the tactical. As TE has explained, let's assume the policeman's gun has 17 rounds, and he empty his magazine at one single target. One question comes to my mind; how many rounds that hit the target? If all 17 rounds hit, then the situation is very bad. First, the policeman was too nervous that he shot until his gun was empty. It would be very a bad situation for him if his opponent was not alone because he won't have a chance to reload. Second, did the policeman mean to kill the boy? If he just want to put him down and get him controlled, the first few round hit is too much enough to disable him.

when its dark, and with low light, in a high stress situation, the officer was pursuing the bad guy on foot because he suspected he was carrying a weapon,,,, lots of gun-fights end in a jam or "slide-lock", better seek cover and do a tactical reload before you run dry, and save that half empty magazine, do not drop live ammo, you may need it, in this case there were 3 suspects running from the scene when the off duty officer drove by??? he gave chase on foot when he could no longer follow in the vehicle, he would be "winded" and likely "adrenalized", have you ever attempted to fire a handgun accurately, I'm not much good without a rest honestly, but my "shooting partner" is a tactical shooter, but I never try to play his game, he is just to good, he practices at least 50 rounds per week I would estimate. He likes the S/A SD, but he also owns several 1911s, one a TRP, he is very good.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Brat, I think you are misunderstanding my position on this and a critical factor. First I am attempting to debunk the cop hunter. The idea that 17 shots means that this officer was intentionally gunning down the suspect without rational. I am also dealing with a critical issue. Not every peace officer is created equally and not every officer is as capable of taking the situation in a perfect manor. I am playing devils advocate, as I am sick of seeing every case brought up ending in crucifixion based on perceptions and perceived what ifs that fail to match the gritty bloody reality.
 

delft

Brigadier
I cannot judge the conduct of this officer. I don't have sufficent information. But I do question the quality of US police organisations as I have reason to question the quality of the Dutch police organisation.
 

SouthernSky

Junior Member
I cannot judge the conduct of this officer. I don't have sufficent information. But I do question the quality of US police organisations as I have reason to question the quality of the Dutch police organisation.

There are bad apples in every barrel delft. Just today I read about a former police officer in my home state here in Australia who is now serving time in prison for serious drug related offenses. I certainly wouldn't judge the entire police department on his actions alone though. I know several officers personally and more fine upstanding citizens and professionals you will not find.

As has already been said, it's far too early to judge this particular officers actions until more is known.
 

shen

Senior Member
Brat, I think you are misunderstanding my position on this and a critical factor. First I am attempting to debunk the cop hunter. The idea that 17 shots means that this officer was intentionally gunning down the suspect without rational. I am also dealing with a critical issue. Not every peace officer is created equally and not every officer is as capable of taking the situation in a perfect manor. I am playing devils advocate, as I am sick of seeing every case brought up ending in crucifixion based on perceptions and perceived what ifs that fail to match the gritty bloody reality.

the risk of collateral damage should be a concern if police officers are trained to empty their magazine. I remember reading several years ago about a NYPD shooting in which several officers fired numerous rounds in downtown NYC. wounding not only several innocent bystanders but also fellow officers with direct hits and ricochets.

the fact that officer in this case fired 17 shots at one suspect does point to some potential problems.
1) the officer doesn't seems to have faith in the stopping power of his weapon. in which case a classic .45 caliber 7 round 1911 style pistol may make more sense for police use. regardless of the actual difference in effectiveness between .45 and 9mm, the popular American perception of the power of .45 round may increase the officer's confidence in his weapon. limited by 7 round magazine also force the officer to stop and reassesses the situation earlier than if he has a 17 round magazine. thus decrease the chance for collateral damage.

2) the flash sight technique as taught doesn't seem to work for the average police officer in stressful situations. there are many effective compact red dot sights for pistol as well as laser sight on the market now. wouldn't these more modern sighting options increase police shooting accuracy in real world situations?
 

delft

Brigadier
There are bad apples in every barrel delft. Just today I read about a former police officer in my home state here in Australia who is now serving time in prison for serious drug related offenses. I certainly wouldn't judge the entire police department on his actions alone though. I know several officers personally and more fine upstanding citizens and professionals you will not find.

As has already been said, it's far too early to judge this particular officers actions until more is known.
Sure, but there are many reports of police misbehavior in US. I cannot judge any of them but I wonder just as I wonder about the quality of the police in The Netherlands and UK, countries about which I have more information.There are too many cases of people mistreated, wrongly arrested, wrongly convicted in all three countries and no doubt also in countries I know less about. It is the duty of parliaments to supervise the state in the first place on this matter - unjust persecution by the state. Really a state doesn't deserve the name democratic if this is not able to get these matters right.
 
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