When US sells the Apache to Taiwan, will this pose a serious threat to China?
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Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
Taiwan is thinking about buying 30 Apache attack helicopters along with 90 utility helicopters. I have read news from Taiwan, China, and the US, and this a combination of what is going on with this plan:
1. Taiwan's government is split over whether to buy or not buy. The pro-buy side says Taiwan's current attack and utility helicopters are getting too old (outdated technology and too much wear-and-tear), so they need this new stuff. The anti-buy side says that the new attack and utility helicopters will do very little to help Taiwan defend itself against a Chinese invasion, so this military deal is ineffective and expensive, and should be thrown out. The anti-buy side also wants to improve relations with China, and not continue or worsen the arguments with China, so they think this military deal is counterproductive. The anti-buy side also said that the US is pushing for this sale to profit off of Taiwan, because the US is a demanding price that is greatly overpriced for these weapons.
2. Taiwan's government will most likely decide whether to buy or not buy AFTER 2008. This is due to Taiwan's government schedule and elections. Then it is up to the US government to decide whether to sell or not. Currently, talks about this deal are just for brainstorming.
3. Right now, the US is not offering Taiwan any thing that is for sure. The US has only told Taiwan that IF (and a BIG IF) Taiwan buys and the US sells, then Taiwan can get the Apache block II sometime now, or wait until 2010 or later to get the new Apache block III. I read US news that Apache block III will come out in 2010, and the US will first give itself these new Apaches, and then the US will give them out to its allies/customers, so these delivery times make sense.
1. Taiwan's government is split over whether to buy or not buy. The pro-buy side says Taiwan's current attack and utility helicopters are getting too old (outdated technology and too much wear-and-tear), so they need this new stuff. The anti-buy side says that the new attack and utility helicopters will do very little to help Taiwan defend itself against a Chinese invasion, so this military deal is ineffective and expensive, and should be thrown out. The anti-buy side also wants to improve relations with China, and not continue or worsen the arguments with China, so they think this military deal is counterproductive. The anti-buy side also said that the US is pushing for this sale to profit off of Taiwan, because the US is a demanding price that is greatly overpriced for these weapons.
2. Taiwan's government will most likely decide whether to buy or not buy AFTER 2008. This is due to Taiwan's government schedule and elections. Then it is up to the US government to decide whether to sell or not. Currently, talks about this deal are just for brainstorming.
3. Right now, the US is not offering Taiwan any thing that is for sure. The US has only told Taiwan that IF (and a BIG IF) Taiwan buys and the US sells, then Taiwan can get the Apache block II sometime now, or wait until 2010 or later to get the new Apache block III. I read US news that Apache block III will come out in 2010, and the US will first give itself these new Apaches, and then the US will give them out to its allies/customers, so these delivery times make sense.
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D
Deleted member 675
Guest
Where did you hear this from? Last time I heard money for the Apaches was included in the 2008 budget. Whether it passes legislative review is one thing, but the government does want to buy them.
As for US authorisation, as I pointed out Bush agreed to sell them years ago - I haven't read anything to show that position has changed.
maozedong
Banned Idiot
As my memory,2002 Bush approved the sale: 8 diesel submarines,4 AEW planes,8 or 12
Anti-sub aircraft and a batch of Patriot-2 air-defense missiles,I can't remember any Apache helos are include in the sale.
But this sale, really is just passed by the Legislative,what's going on?
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Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
Mr. FuManChu, like I have been teaching you over and over: the world is very complex, which means the world can be very unpredictable and unclear.
For example, see the above reply by MaoZeDong where he talks about President Bush "selling" a massive naval and air-defense package to Taiwan in 2002. This "complete" 2002 deal is still being worked out, and today is late 2007, despite the fact that President Bush said he sold Taiwan all this stuff.
Mr. FuManChu, please read American and Taiwan news on the internet, it is not that hard. You should be able to read English. If you cannot read Chinese, then get someone who can read Chinese to translate Taiwan news to you. Taiwan news is in Traditional Chinese (not Simplified Chinese). It is rarely in Cantonese or Taiwanese, which are two other types of Chinese.
I just very quickly went to Google.com, and entered the words "Taiwan buys Apache helicopter" to the search function and quickly came up with this recent news article:
There are many more sites about Taiwan-US arms deals in English and Chinese. They are easy to find. Almost every one indicates that President Bush's "completed" military sales are meeting crippling setbacks in the US, in Taiwan, in Europe, and in China.
For example, see the above reply by MaoZeDong where he talks about President Bush "selling" a massive naval and air-defense package to Taiwan in 2002. This "complete" 2002 deal is still being worked out, and today is late 2007, despite the fact that President Bush said he sold Taiwan all this stuff.
Mr. FuManChu, please read American and Taiwan news on the internet, it is not that hard. You should be able to read English. If you cannot read Chinese, then get someone who can read Chinese to translate Taiwan news to you. Taiwan news is in Traditional Chinese (not Simplified Chinese). It is rarely in Cantonese or Taiwanese, which are two other types of Chinese.
I just very quickly went to Google.com, and entered the words "Taiwan buys Apache helicopter" to the search function and quickly came up with this recent news article:
There are many more sites about Taiwan-US arms deals in English and Chinese. They are easy to find. Almost every one indicates that President Bush's "completed" military sales are meeting crippling setbacks in the US, in Taiwan, in Europe, and in China.
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D
Deleted member 675
Guest
Amongst other things, 6 Patriot-3 batteries, 8 SSKs and 12 P-3C Orions were approved in 2001.
The decision to sell the Apache was made in 2002. The 2001 offer got headlines because it included a lot of stuff that Taiwan had been requesting for many years and the estimated value was very high. But the US has been approving various items since 2001. The following document gives a lot of information about what has been approved for sale to Taiwan.
The 2008 budget is still being negotiated over in the legislative - the current session will probably be extended if it hasn't been passed by the end of this week (due to go into recess on 14/15th).
I read news from around the world every day. On the other hand I doubt you read that widely, otherwise you'd know basic information you appear ignorant of.
There's a difference between authorising sale and agreeing a contract. If the Taiwanese legislative doesn't approve funding then that doesn't change the fact America is willing to sell, nor that the Taiwanese government wants the items in question.
The only thing that the article said of note was that the legislative may not authorise the budget this year. What you said was that the Taiwanese government had not taken a decision on whether to buy them and were just in "brainstorming" talks. Clearly that is not the case if a request for them has been included in the 2008 budget - you don't ask the legislative to give you money for something you're not sure you want because it would take up space for something you definitely need.
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Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
You article just says LOTS of talk in the US and in Taiwan are going on concerning these sales. The sales are STILL NOT COMPLETE. The sales still have a LONG WAYS to go before completion.
This is why all these sales occurred around 2002 and today is the end of 2007, yet the sales are still being worked on in the US, in Taiwan, in China, and in Europe. All these decision makers are still coming up with ideas, and not finalizing anything or acting on any clear decisions. These sales are still in its infancy.
If you want more news, here are news from Taiwan's viewpoint:
1.
2.
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D
Deleted member 675
Guest
You need to read what people said. I said, quite clearly:
The following document gives a lot of information about what has been approved for sale to Taiwan.
I see that you've dropped your silly assertion that the Taiwanese government isn't sure if it wants the helos. Good, you've stopped digging your hole.
I think you mean the KMT's viewpoint. I like to read more independent sources, thanks.
You two could also get back to the apaches. I'll allow only one Taiwan topic to be moderatly overboard at one time, and it aint this one
Gollevainen
Super Moderator
Gollevainen
Super Moderator
Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
No, the Apache sale is still being worked on and has a long ways to go before completion.
If (and a BIG IF) Taiwan finally acquires the Apache, it is unlikely Taiwan will use the Apache to declare independence and to defend itself form China. First, economic, educational, and cultural exchanges between China and Taiwan are moving along very well. About half of Taiwan's politicians want eventual reunification, and the other half want independence or are unsure.
Second, the Apache will not pose a serious threat to China because the Apache will be replacing old and outdated attack helicopters at low numbers. Attack helicopters are great against main battle tanks, but they have performed poorly against infantry with rockets/missiles, jets, and SAMs and long-range missiles. Thirty Apaches cannot single-handedly protect Taiwan against China's navy, air force, and ground forces, and thirty Apaches cannot tip the balance of power into Taiwan's favor.
If (and a BIG IF) Taiwan finally acquires the Apache, it is unlikely Taiwan will use the Apache to declare independence and to defend itself form China. First, economic, educational, and cultural exchanges between China and Taiwan are moving along very well. About half of Taiwan's politicians want eventual reunification, and the other half want independence or are unsure.
Second, the Apache will not pose a serious threat to China because the Apache will be replacing old and outdated attack helicopters at low numbers. Attack helicopters are great against main battle tanks, but they have performed poorly against infantry with rockets/missiles, jets, and SAMs and long-range missiles. Thirty Apaches cannot single-handedly protect Taiwan against China's navy, air force, and ground forces, and thirty Apaches cannot tip the balance of power into Taiwan's favor.
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