When US sells the Apache to Taiwan, will this pose a serious threat to China?

crobato said:

That's not how MTI works. As long as it moves, it is detected. And the faster it moves, the more it is detected. This is not a matter of hiding from the radar's point of view. The key element to this is that a moving object will produce a measurably different return compared to its previous reading, while a static object would produce the same return from a previous reading.

As for ground based radars, they're a lot smarter now than you think. For example, artillery spotting radar can trace a detection with only the RCS of an actual artillery shell, which by the way is pretty small and directly the same to the physical diameter of the artillery shell---all the way back to its source. Artillery spotting radar can double as detection against low flying aircraft, helicopters and even cruise missiles.

And you really can't appreciate the fact that ground based radars are on elevated arms that will enable them to be raised above the tree level height. Once again, many SAM systems are being meant to counter low flying aircraft, helicopters, and most importantly terrain hugging cruise missiles.

Aircraft with FLIR looking down can spot any helo flying low and send a heater up its behind.

As for the PLA, they got a unique situation where their own attack helicopters happen to be equipped with the world's only helicopter vs. helicopter missile, the TY-60.

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Again you are ignoring the sensitivity setting on the fighter's radar. I do not dispute that a fighter can pick out a low slow mover, but setting the radar to find that helo also means that all the ground traffic, trucks, IFV's, tank's, even passing cars, will show up at targets on the fighter pilot's radar. In actual practice US fighter pilots will select a speed higher than ground traffic so the radar ignors all the ground clutter that is not important to a fighter pilot's life. The cagey combat helo pilot ( dude, I am a trained ex-military CH-46 pilot ) uses terrain, trees, and low speed to stay outside the sensitivity most fighter pilots will set their radar's at. This is a practical application, not theoretical. Yes they can find you but in real life to do so the fighter pilot has to accept being alerted to all manner of ground traffic he is simply not interested in. A helo can do it's required mission very low and slow enough to be completely missed by that fighter. If mister SU-27 pilot does choose to come down to my altitude an play there are several other ways the cagey helo pilot can make that guy's life very frustrating. Believe me on this, the Marines have an outstanding DACM program out at Yuma were USAF F-15 jocks regularly are handed their arses by CH-53E's and the like ( one F-15 pilot never knew a 53 could be looped unitl it pulled one directly in front of him and scared the living crap out of him at low level, forcing him to break hard to avoid a collision. By the time he completed his turn my 53 driver was long gone, helos can slow down very quickly in small spaces while fast movers like jets take huge amounts of space to turn, this is where a cagey helo pilot looses mr fighter pilot, seeeee yaaaaaa ). As we used to say in our squadron, jets suck and blow
Those ground based systems cannot find a helo hiding behind a ridge or below trees as effectively as you assert. If you are very close yes, that is where your scout helo's come in to play. The Kiowa is supposed to find the targets and the sensors for the Apache or Cobra to attack, and to tell the Phrogs ( CH-46's ) and Blackhawks to stay away. There will also be a Rivet Joint up there and a U-2 feeding real time information on enemy troop dispositons, allowing the cargo carriers to avoid enemy gun and missile emplacements, and vectoring the gunships in for the kill. In actual practice a helo's worst enemy's are the ZSU-23/4 Shilka ( no real counter except to avoid it like the plague ) and certain manpads. Radar guided missiles all have minimum engagement altitudes that are all high enough for a helo to stay under and still do their job. Semi active or CLOS systems? They must have the target in line of sight to complete the intercept and I am going to use terrain or trees to prevent you from doing that. This is real life from a former military helo pilot. What are your quals?

I am no helicopter pilot but I do know where systems are going.

Are you going to be alerted all the time to stay low and very slow (will take a lot of time to reach the mission area) because you will never know when an F-15 or an Su-27 will fly over the area.

Radar guided missiles will have problems against targets down low, but there are now things like HOBS missiles and HMS to take care of that. All it matters for the Su-27 pilot to do is see you, get a lock from his helmet sight just looking at the side of his shoulder and shoot an R-73 without even the need to go down to your altitude or point his nose at you. Todays infrared seekers and FLIRs can seek targets down and cue that to the cockpit displays or to the helmet sight. Infrared missiles have reached to a point they will discriminate that well to know if its a helicopter or just a car in the ground.

As for the radars, can you ignore that high frequency radars can pick out rotating helicopter blades? Your RCS will correspondingly either appear as the diameter of the blades and each blade will turn very fast, one toward the radar and the other opposite of it all at the same time, and this will create a unique harmonic signature.

Dude you don't have to tell me what your record is, but I like to ask you when was the last time you were in service. Things change you know. Technology changes. Even radar guided missiles are becoming even more discriminating and clutter resistant as time goes on.

　　YLC-6雷达是一部高机动S波段两坐标低空目标监视雷达，它具有良好的低空探测性能，优良的反地物和气象杂波的性能以及强有力的反干扰能力。这部雷达采用了全固态发射机、先进的MTD和MTI技术来确保探测低空目标的性能，它是一部理想的机动型低空目标警戒雷达。

YLC-6雷达是一种作用距离为1 80千米的低空警戒雷达。据称该雷达对美军AH-64“阿帕奇”直升机的探测距离可达到30千米。而CLC-3、AS901、CLC-2、PZG-95、SLC.2等雷达都是近期研制的高性能近距警戒雷达。

YLC-6 radar is what is used against low altitude targets. It claims to be able to spot AH-64 from up to 30 km away. CLC-3, AS-901, CLC-2, PZC-95, SLC-2 are high performance low altitude radar developed recently.

FuManChu said:

Your comparison isn't appropriate. Chinese missiles are a threat to Taiwan because they can reach the island - that's the whole reason they were deployed, to threaten the island.

On the other hand the Apaches couldn't be used to attack China in such a way.

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Iran and North Koreans nukes won't pose a threat too unless the United States invade them. God knows the Iranians and Koreans won't dare to declare a war against the United States.
Apaches cannot reach mainland China? Helicopters can't fly, they are cannons fixed to the ground.

美國友邦 said:

Iran and North Koreans nukes won't pose a threat too unless the United States invade them.

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That's nonsense and completely irrelevant to the discussion. There is no fear of invasion by Taiwan, so China's missiles can only be used offensively.

Apaches cannot reach mainland China?

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They might be able to but:

1. they wouldn't have enough fuel to get back
2. they'd almost certainly be shot down before they got to their targets.

So they'd be useless in trying to attack China.

FuManChu said:

That's nonsense and completely irrelevant to the discussion. There is no fear of invasion by Taiwan, so China's missiles can only be used offensively.



They might be able to but:

1. they wouldn't have enough fuel to get back
2. they'd almost certainly be shot down before they got to their targets.

So they'd be useless in trying to attack China.

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Why are you so sure about that? Even politicans cannot predicit conflict between countries.

I can list out several possibilites for Taiwan to declare war on China. (Not including the other way round)

1. History tells us the Kuomintang always wanted to retake mainland china by force.

2. Conflict or dispute break out between China and Taiwan, Taiwan invade parts of China as a show of force.

3. Dispute of claim of territory eg. diaoyutai islands, Spratly Islands, leads to small scale war.

4. New president recently elected in Taiwan, god knows whether his policies against China may lead to conflict in the future.

Don't be so over confident on your own judgment, few years ago, no American would dream of invading Iraq, yet it occured.

美國友邦 said:

History tells us the Kuomintang always wanted to retake mainland china by force.

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I'm not sure how to respond to your comment, other than to say that there is no realistic chance that Taiwan would invade China - history was then, the present is now. There might be a skirmish somewhere on some islands some day, but a barrage of 1,000 missiles would not do anything other than make a mountain out of a molehill and kick off a larger conflict.

Even when Taiwan had a large technological superiority over China the idea of taking control of it was a pipe-dream. Today it really is impossible. So please let the issue drop.

few years ago, no American would dream of invading Iraq

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Actually plenty of Americans had urged just that course of action - some saw it as inevitable. No more off-topic stuff, please.

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Do you concede the point on the Apache's range?

Unlikely does not means you can totally list out all posibilities that Taiwan may go to war.
However, this arguement is no longer relavent, it will just go on forever.
My main point is weapons are killing machines, that's the only reason why they exist. Whether it is defensive or offensive do not matter, anything that can be used to kill and can be deployed at wars are considered to be a threat.

From what I see, Apache in Taiwanese hands will certainly pose a serious threat to China's invading forces, especially their armoured regiments.

However using Apache to attack China might not be that wise unless Taiwanese had helicopters carriers or light carriers. Like all vehicles, Apache needed fuel to carry on flying. It might have enough range to land in some of the coastal areas of China, but once in, they couldn't operate for long. and unless Taiwan is able to provide fuel and ammunitions to these birds continuously, they would be doomed.

Thus Apache would not really be a threat to China unless China planned to attack Taiwan.