UPI: "Taiwan plans to purchase.... two nuclear attack submarines."

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
If Taiwan was willing to spend the $$, there's no reason why they cannot construct SSK's locally. Mind you this might not be the most cost effective method, but if you're desperate and have no other alternative, then so be it.

It's very unlikely that the EU would export submarines to Taiwan. But blueprints and limited technical assistance is possible. The Koreans license submarine design from HDW and have them built locally by Hyundai Heavy Industries.

IMO Taiwan missed some good opportunities in teaming up with S. Korea on defense R&D. At one time Taiwan actually exported more cars and built more ships than S. Korea. Today the situation is so drastically different, one has to wonder whatever happened to Taiwan.

There's also the "grass greener on other side" mentality. Gee whiz, just because it's built in France/Japan/etc, it's gotta be better than domestic? Yeah right. Taiwan's own shipyards can do the job, but only if you give them the resources:
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BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
If Taiwan was willing to spend the $$, there's no reason why they cannot construct SSK's locally. Mind you this might not be the most cost effective method, but if you're desperate and have no other alternative, then so be it. ..Taiwan's own shipyards can do the job, but only if you give them the resources:
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Let's say they finaly start building them at home. All of a sudden the next crisis comes and those subs & yards are sabotaged and/or bombed. Or strikes/earthqakes/typhoons shut them down for some time-you get the picture. In the long run, even if more expensive, it may make sense to build at least some of them abroad to enable their faster entry into service- "don't put all the eggs in one basket"!
 

Sea Dog

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Please reference a link to a credible technological organization where the conversion of nuclear attack subs to diesel electric subs has not only been discussed, but where technology is being put forward along with the production plans to accomplish this particualr task.

I do not believe there is a credible effort going on anywhere to retrofit a nuclear attack sub into a diesel sub...but would be open to any documentation to the contrary.

This is not even a remote possibility. The difficulties in removing the core, redesigning the interior spaces due to the differing machinery, and spaces in the maneuvering compartments would make this type of an endevour a waste IMO. Plus a standard diesel/electric engine may not have the power requirements to move a beast as big as a FLT I LA SSN. You may have to do an entire redesign of batteries and main diesel engine components. And don't forget the shaft and reduction gears. This is a totally off the wall idea.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
Let's say they finaly start building them at home. All of a sudden the next crisis comes and those subs & yards are sabotaged and/or bombed. Or strikes/earthqakes/typhoons shut them down for some time-you get the picture. In the long run, even if more expensive, it may make sense to build at least some of them abroad to enable their faster entry into service- "don't put all the eggs in one basket"!

This may be slightly off topic, but I believe that many of these factors have all been considered by the Taiwanese government and also adds to the toe-dragging to pass the arms deals.

A valid criticism of the potential sub orders from the KMT (opposition party in Taiwan) is that it will simply take too long for the subs to be completed and put into service; especially considering that most military experts estimate that the balance of power in the Taiwan strait will weigh heavily towards China by 2010 or so. What exactly are the subs for?

Taiwan's doctrine of defense stresses the importance of surviving a first strike and deterring an amphibious invasion long enough for a US task force to arrive. As time passes the Chinese capability to put up a credible response to a carrier battle group increases, and so arguments against the sub deal point out that if Taiwan puts all of its defense eggs into arms that will not be deployed until the distant future (Confirmed to be at least 2010 or after) there is a disturbing chance that they will not be relevant in the event that they are actually needed.

From a purely defensive military standpoint, the submarines (which happen to be the most expensive item on the shopping list) are a burden to Taiwan that may not be worth the hassle. US apprehensions regarding capability and America's nuclear submarine-based strategy aside, the main reason would be that as of now it is hard to find a manufacturing country, and the extended delivery team (estimated minimum of at least 8 years) would mean that the submarines wouldn't be around to do the job that they're needed for. Even more discouraging is the probability that they would in fact be of little use against PRC forces; namely the ballistic missiles that would probably be fired in an opening salvo preceding invasion.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Altough the above quotes are not about converting nuclear subs to conventional ones...
And that is the entire point.

To my knowledge, there is no talk anywhere of such a project, nor have I ever heard of one. We know subs can undergo substantial changes...look at the USS Jimmy Carter. But to remove the entire nuclear propulsion system and replace it with a diesel one would be so cost prohibitive as to ensure, in my own opinion, that a new AIP diesel/electric was built instead.

...and the point that the LA class boats have auxillary diesels is mute. The Fairbanks-Morse 38D8Q diesel-powered electric generator and batteries are for emergency operations and cannot provide the speed or endurance the vessel requiires for patrol or combat operations. In order to increase the size and power of thst auxillary equipment, such that it would provide the speed and endurance necessary, see the prior paragraph.

sea dog said:
This is not even a remote possibility. The difficulties in removing the core, redesigning the interior spaces due to the differing machinery, and spaces in the maneuvering compartments would make this type of an endevour a waste IMO. Plus a standard diesel/electric engine may not have the power requirements to move a beast as big as a FLT I LA SSN. You may have to do an entire redesign of batteries and main diesel engine components. And don't forget the shaft and reduction gears. This is a totally off the wall idea.
Agreed. See my above comments along the same lines to BLUEJACKET.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
I couldn't find a link about the French offer to convert unfinished SSN for Taiwan, but if it's true, it would be nice to know at what stage it was at the time that offer was made. Generator and batteries on LA class are for emergency operations, but aren't all diesel subs most efficient at slow speeds? In any case, once the nuclear reactor and its associated gear are removed there should be plenty of space to install more powerful diesel generator(s), AIP system and batteries!
The improved Project 636 has more powerful diesel generators, but with a lowered speed main shaft, which provides a substantial reduction in the acoustic signature of the submarine. ..
[Dolphin SSK] The propulsion system provides a speed of 20 knots dived and a snorting speed of 11 knots. The range of the submarine is 8,000 miles at a surface speed of eight knots and over 400 miles at an economical speed of 8 knots dived. The hull is rated for a diving depth of 350m. The endurance of the submarine is 30 days. ..
[Kilo SSK] Speed 17 kts (dived) 10 kts (surfaced)
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What about the direct drive eliminating the need for reduction gears?

..the introduction of the electric motor would eliminate the need for a reduction gear. Electric drive also would eliminate the need for a lengthy shaft that couples the prime mover to the propeller, he said. This is important for combat purposes, because the shaft creates a direct path for engine noise into the water, increasing the ship's acoustic signature.
For electric drive, the prime movers-which now are installed amidships-can be linked to generators and then to the motors by a flexible cable, permitting them to be positioned elsewhere in the ship, creating extra capacity for fuel and ordnance.
The demand for power for ship's propulsion "has reached a plateau," Carnavale said, "but the need for power for ships' systems continues to increase geometrically, with no end in sight.
"In today's warships," he added, "half of the propulsion power is used to get the last 10 percent of speed-a ship traveling at 30 knots could go 27 knots on half the power, potentially freeing up that power for other needs."
Numerous Operational Advantages
An IED [integrated electric drive system], Carnavale said, would power both the propulsion motors and the ship systems through a powerconversion system that would regulate and transfer power at the levels required throughout the ship to power weapons, sensors, and other systems.
Discussing the impact of electric drive on a ship's warfighting capabilities, Mullen said that the move to IED will "revolutionize the way we do business." The reduction in a ship's acoustic signature afforded by electric drive, he said, will permit the ship to remain in hostile waters longer without being detected and to operate in a more vigorous manner. Because the quieter ship will be more difficult to detect, it will be more survivable and more effective in carrying out combat operations.
The freedom to position elements of an lED power system throughout the ship, Mullen said, will dramatically improve survivability if the ship takes a hit from enemy fire. The integration of the propulsion system and the ship's "hotel" power will enable the commander to reroute power in the event of damage, permitting the ship to continue to fight.
The efficiency of space arrangements will require fewer personnel to carry out damage control; therefore, fewer lives will be placed at risk. The introduction of computer-based power-conversion and damage-control systems also will reduce the need for auxiliary mechanical- and hydraulics-based damage control systems. .. Electro Dynamic has designed a 6,000 horsepower PMM motor that is being built at WEMD for the Navy's LSV-2 demonstration submarine. .."This first in what we are confident will be a series of contracts from the US Navy, will enable us to continue optimizing HTS motors and power electronic drives for use in future surface combatants as well as other classes of naval vessels. It will also strengthen the foundation for adoption of these revolutionary advanced motors in a broad set of commercial ship types," said Greg Yurek, chief executive officer and founder of American Superconductor.
About American Superconductor's HTS Motors
The 36.5-MW HTS motor undergoing factory testing in Philadelphia has the potential to change the way naval warships fight due to the dramatic reductions in size and weight it offers. The motor weighs approximately 75 metric tons and is about one-third the weight and one-half the size of conventional copper-based propulsion motors of the same power and torque rating. This enables Navy ships to carry more fuel and war fighting capabilities as well as expanded crew's quarters. The HTS motor offers a significant reduction in noise, and thus a smaller acoustic signature, compared to current motors In addition, HTS motors operate with higher fuel efficiency over the entire mission profile of a warship. American Superconductor expects the motor to have lower maintenance costs than their conventional copper and permanent magnet motor counterparts. The substantial advantages offered by HTS ship propulsion motors are expected to be provided at a price equivalent to conventional motors of the same power and torque rating. ..
In general, the same line of reasoning that applies to surface ship power and propulsion systems also applies to submarines. Optimization of submarine systems will be driven by stealth, safety, power density, and other requirements that differentiate surface and undersea vehicles. Submarine power and propulsion system technologies of the future will include the following:
Very low harmonic motor controllers;
High-power-density and high-performance solid-state inverters and converters and the components thereof;
Electrical substitutes for systems and components that now rely on fluid transport for energy and actuation, e.g., electric actuators, electromagnetic launchers, and thermoelectric coolers;
Motors and generators with very low acoustic and magnetic signatures, including versions that can operate submerged in seawater at high pressure; and
New technologies for motors and generators such as superconducting magnets, cryogenic coolers, current collectors, high-field permanent magnets, liquid cooling, and active noise control.
A HTS high-torque drive motor can be one-fourth the size of a permanent magnet motor, and its efficiency can be high enough to compete with existing reduction gear/steam turbine systems. HTS motors and generators can also be quieter because the high-density magnetic fields produced allow elimination of iron cores, simplification of armature designs, and elimination of other components that create noise. ..Future submarine power and propulsion technology will inevitably move toward increased reliance on electricity. Advanced dc power distribution using high-speed, turbine-driven rectified alternators feeding solid-state inverters through a dc distribution bus is already targeted to the new nuclear-powered submarine (SSN). Electric propulsion offers an affordable opportunity to enable new propulsor concepts that can improve signature. Studies over the past few years indicate that integration of the electric-propulsion and ship-service power-generation functions at the prime mover can result in reduced ship size and displacement because of fewer power plant components and improvements in their arrangement. Studies have also shown that eliminating centralized hydraulic systems and transporting energy electrically to the point of use will result in up to 70 tons of weight savings and potential cost reduction. In the future, this concept might be extended to other systems, such as heating, ventilation, and air conditioning.
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bd popeye, Please ask your son to help us on this- I don't know any submariner machinist mate or marine propulsion engineer to get a professional answer, but perhaps he does!

The_Zergling, in war you get as many bullets as you can to be ready for anything- even if those future subs don't actualy participate in it, their presence alone will force the enemy to use different tactics. Submarines are force multipliers by their mere existance & potential!
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
bd popeye, Please ask your son to help us on this- I don't know any submariner machinist mate or marine propulsion engineer to get a professional answer, but perhaps he does!

He can't help you there, sorry. he is a surface sonar tech..not a bubblehead! So sorry. By the way he just made STG1..:)

While what you post is intresting the cost to convert is prohibitive. And of course you know my feelings on the subject
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
The_Zergling, in war you get as many bullets as you can to be ready for anything- even if those future subs don't actualy participate in it, their presence alone will force the enemy to use different tactics. Submarines are force multipliers by their mere existance & potential!

Yes indeed, you will only have the weaponary that you are willing to pay for. i was pointing out possible reasoning behind the resistance for arms deals - considering that money could well be spent towards other aspects of Taiwan's defense that do not take as much money and would help survive the crucial first salvo of ballistic missiles - and that submarines are easier to target in a potential battle zone as small as the Taiwan strait.

It's not as if Taiwan does not have any submarines at all, they do (albeit not of high potential) and China probably already does take into account this factor when scripting invasion plans.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
The Koreans license submarine design from HDW and have them built locally by Hyundai Heavy Industries.
IMO Taiwan missed some good opportunities in teaming up with S. Korea on defense R&D.
That hasn't happened because the ROK wouldn't want to anger China. The US could probably order 10 subs in S. Korea, evaluate them in exercises, and then eventualy sell 8 to Taiwan, leaving 2 for their own use & sending the Swedes with their Gotland sub home. Will that ever happen? Your guess is as good as mine.
If the ROCN get new subs, they better have them with SLCMs/ASMs/UAVs to enable targeting both ships & shore, besides traditional ASW-that way any BM attack by the PLA will be answered- that alone may serve as a detterant & make the investment worth it! With those missiles, they wouldn't have to restrict themselves to operate in the strait only!

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Scratch

Captain
Well Bluejacket, since the ROCN has problems finding someone selling any type of new subs, I think it's even harder finding someone to provide SLCM capable subs to them.
And developing that on their on ... ? If so, better develop just ASW subs that perhaps could be available in a reasonable timeframe and evolve them later in the next generation.

Of course it would be of grade value to the ROC having a small but credible deterrence, but the political implications ... ?
 
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