UPI: "Taiwan plans to purchase.... two nuclear attack submarines."

Pointblank

Senior Member
You can remove the Tomahawk capability from the submarines by removing all equipment that is associated with the Tomahawk capability. A similar thing was done when Canada purchased the Victoria class (ex RN Upholder) submarines, where the Sub-Harpoon capability was taken out of the submarine by the removal of the associated launch hardware.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
The Taiwanese ought to try it with Japan. The Harushios are a capable design, and new Oyashios are one of the most advanced SSK designs in the world. It would be in Japan's strategic interest to see Taiwan having a capable submarine force counterbalancing the rising powers of the PLAN in East and South China Seas.

Thing is I don't believe the Japanese actually export arms - they're probably restricted by law. So that would only leave help with design and production. Even then I don't think Japan would want to sacrifice improving relations with China even if it was able to do that.

Japan may help Taiwan out directly or indirectly in case of war, but during peace-time it won't - unless there is a massive bust-up between Beijing and Tokyo, far worse than anything seen before.

As to the report itself, I doubt very much that the Taiwanese legislative would authorise the purchase of SSNs from the US, unless they were massively overhauled and had a fair price-tag. I doubt the US could offer both those things. So the hunt for SSKs will continue.

(It's worth noting that the author of the article may well have confused himself over SSNs - journalists frequently post misleading articles when it comes to defence out of ignorance or lack of research.)
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
In my opinion the US will not sell the ROC LA class subs...Why?

Simple. The US is more than likely fearful in the event of PRC and ROC re-unification the subs would fall into the hands of the PRC. I don't care how many are de-comissioned it ain't gonna happen. Never.

Has the US ever sold off a nuke sub sub of any class? Nope. Not one. The US does not want this technology out of it's hands.

Let's say the ROC gets a couple LA class..How long will it take to train the crew? The USN nuke power school is 18+ months long for enlisted men. Very intensive.... Look at what the officers go through;

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How is the ROC going to do required maintance & repair them if any problems occur with the nuke plant? They have no nuke capable shipyard. When it come time to re-fuel them..then What?

Before the ROC even thinks about buying a nuke sub all these factors must be taken into consideration.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Has the US ever sold off a nuke sub sub of any class? Nope. Not one. The US does not want this technology out of it's hands.
Let's say the ROC gets a couple LA class..How long will it take to train the crew? The USN nuke power school is 18+ months long for enlisted men. Very intensive....
How is the ROC going to do required maintance & repair them if any problems occur with the nuke plant? They have no nuke capable shipyard. When it come time to re-fuel them..then What?
The technology is already out!
If the Type 093 were to approach the acoustic performance of the Project 671RTM (Victor III), it would be superior to early SSN 688 Los Angeles class SSNs. Though not as good as the latest SSN 21 Seawolf and SSN 774 Virginia, the Type 093 would constitute a remarkable advance over the widely acknowledged poor acoustic performance of the Type 091. ..
the "Improved Akula / Akula II and the new Severodvinsk SSNs have capabilities comparable with the U.S. Los Angeles and Seawolf attack submarines. All other Russian subs possess significantly weaker capabilities. (Source: Jane's Fighting Ships, 1996-1997)
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The British SSN is the Trafalgar-class. This class of seven boats is considered on par with the Los Angeles class. Armed with five 21-inch torpedo tubes, the Trafalgar carries Spearfish torpedoes, along with the Harpoon and Tomahawk missiles.
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Taiwan's present nuclear capacity, comprising six units, is 4,884MW.
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New diesel subs are quiter than the nuclear ones anyway.
One of Australia's Collins class submarines has hunted down and "killed" a state-of-the-art United States nuclear submarine in a series of mock attacks during an underwater warfare exercise off Hawaii.
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Besides, the US sold many other types of advanced sytems to nations that became or may become unfriendly- Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia,
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, Venezuela, and Taiwan itself- the
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have advanced radar system! So, either the Americans wait indefinitely for that order of 8 SSKs and make no $$$, or make some real $$$ by selling some old SSNs and hope to keep Taiwan in its orbit!
As for nuclear maintance & repair, they can train their personnel at their plants like other nuclear navies do.
And Japan has nuclear power plants too- if the Taiwanese encounter problems, they'll know whom to call for help on this also!
 
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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Yes the technology is already out..

If the Type 093 were to approach the acoustic performance of the Project 671RTM (Victor III), it would be superior to early SSN 688 Los Angeles class SSNs.

"If it's and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas"

Don't believe the hype. My son is an STG1(Sonar tech first class) on active duty with the USN. He has told me more than once that the hardest nuke boat to find are Us built ones because of their superior dappening techniques. He says "other countries" nuke subs don't come close. I stand on what he says. He has 8 years experience. My son once tracked a PLAN nuke sub for 8 continous hours. He will not say what type it was.

The ROC will not have nuke subs any time in the near future.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Thing is I don't believe the Japanese actually export arms - they're probably restricted by law. So that would only leave help with design and production. Even then I don't think Japan would want to sacrifice improving relations with China even if it was able to do that.

The government of Japan has imposed an official policy prohibiting the export of arms and military technology since 1967. However exemptions can be made on case-by-case basis with government approval, specifically in cases where you have joint-R&D with another nation (US), and military tech "export" (sharring) is unavoidable. i.e. F-2 project, and the anti-missile defense.

But that's just the official policy that not what goes on under the table. For decades the Japanese government sold dual use items to North Korea that ended up in arms factories. It's not that the government doesn't know, the CIA complained to them and they just looked the other way, until N. Korea became a problem child.

I recall back in 1980s, US defense industry had joint-project with Toshiba sound labs on making submarines run quieter. Toshiba turned around and sold it to the Russians, including CAD/CAM machining equipment and triple axis milling machines used to make submarine propellers. A Norwegian company also sold the Russians the software to run those machines. You can find the finished product (propellers) installed on Kilo subs today.

When this incident became public knowledge, the Norweign government shut down the company responsible. But Toshiba received a light slap on the wrist, and when the US government wanted to impose a 2-year ban on Toshiba imports, the Japanese government sided with Toshiba and complained bitterly. Hmmf. Anyone remmeber the sledge hammer to Toshiba stero at Capital Hill?

So, even though I highly doubt Japan would sell submarines to Taiwan, I wouldn't put it pass them to look the other way if Kawasaki, Mitsubishi, or Fuji heavy industry export some "dual use" items to Taiwan that just happens to be applicable to submarines.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
adeptitus,
You said it! I wouldn't discount the possibility that
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too one day turns
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to the US!
Taiwan may or may not be able to get SSNs from the US, but I'm sure that between Taiwanese and Japanese there are enough know-how &
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to build their own, be they SSKs or SSNs!
Japan does make extensive use of nuclear energy in nuclear reactors, generating a significant percentage of the electricity in Japan. Japan has the third largest nuclear energy production after the U.S. and France, and plans to produce over 40% of its electricity using nuclear power by 2010. Significant amounts of Plutonium are created as a by-product of the energy production, and Japan had 4.7 tons of plutonium in December 1995. Japan also possesses an indigenous uranium enrichment plant - the same plant, or a secretly constructed plant using similar technology, could be used to make highly enriched uranium suitable for
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. Japan has also developed the M-5 three-stage solid fuel rocket, similar in design to the U.S. LG-118A Peacekeeper ICBM. While there are currently no known plans in Japan to produce nuclear weapons, it has been argued Japan has the technology, raw materials, and the capital to produce nuclear weapons within one year if necessary, and some analysts consider it a de facto nuclear state for this reason. ..The JMSDF (Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force) is arguably the second-best navy in the Pacific, trailing only the United States Navy. The JMSDF has a large number of modern surface warships and the third-largest submarine force in the Pacific, and it could be a potential player in any fight in the Formosa Strait, due to the fact that Japan’s ties with Taiwan have become much closer. ..Japan’s other major asset is its large force of advanced diesel-electric submarines (eighteen subs). The Yuushio, Harushio, and Oyashiro classes displace anywhere from 2,450 tons to 3,000 tons. Each carry six 21-inch torpedo tubes, with a total of 20 weapons (either Harpoon anti-ship missiles or Type 89 torpedoes). These subs would be a potent force against the Chinese Navy. ..
Taiwan may further pursue its existing domestic capabilities. CSBC has constructed a "generic" submarine segment, illustrating its capacity. Taiwan also possesses a crude submarine design that is partially based on the Norwegian Ula-class and Argentine Santa Cruz-class (TR 1700). Both were designed by Thyssen-Nordseewerke (TNSW) in Germany.[41] The latter designs may have been obtained via a Dutch intermediary, which bought the material kits that were supplied to Argentina as scrap metal in 1996.[42] It is unclear how the Ula-class designs were obtained or re-created.[43] Taiwan also acquired 80 percent of the blueprints of its Hai Lung-class (Improved Zwaardvis-design) submarines, which it purchased from the Netherlands. ..Taipei's ruling party decided back in 2001 to buy eight diesel-electric subs for $12 billion. The problem is they are only made in Europe and no European country will sell them to Taiwan for fear of offending China. The Euros will license their technology to the United States, however, which can ask defense contractors in Connecticut or Mississippi to make them for Taiwan. Problem solved, right?
Actually, no. The Executive branch and the Defense Department may like the deal because they get 15 percent of the $12 billion. But the U.S. Navy hates it. Why? Because the diesel subs in question aren't like the ones your grandpa likes to watch on the Memorial Day movie marathon. They are fast, quiet, relatively cheap, and extremely efficient when patrolling a continental shelf or shallow waters like the Taiwan Strait. It took decades for the Navy to get its all-nuclear sub fleet. The last thing admirals want is for congressmen to have a cheaper alternative that provides jobs in an American shipyard.
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Violet Oboe

Junior Member
Actually Japan has already acquired the necessary nuclear propulsion technology for SSN decades ago since they built the ´civilian´ cargo ship Mutsu between 1964 and 1970 (displacement 8250 ts, length 130 m). Unfourtunately the ´teapot´was initially a dangerous dud and leaked radioactivity in 1974 seatrials but japanese engineers carried on for another 16 years in hammering out the design flaws. Eventually the ship went on her maiden trip in 1990 and carried out three additional cruises until being decommissioned in 1994 and all this for the ´cheapo´price tag of more than 1.1 bn $! Without any sense for irony the japanese government maintained that the significant amount of precious environmental data collected on the four voyages constituted indeed a great scientific success and warranted the huge sums spent. Curiously these ´precious data´were never made public in any scientific journals whether at home or abroad :confused: (certainly no one has second thoughts here alright!:D).

The suspiciously small reactor of only 7.5 MW power output was of course not really intended for being am effective cargo ship engine but just happened to be miniaturized enough for fitting in a decently dimensioned attack sub. Interestingly this was discovered quite early by indian experts who were conducting a SSN feasibility study for New Delhi. The indian engineers were certain about this since the modifications introduced in the 80´s were clearly motivated by the desire for making the reactor (vessel, piping, security) more suitable for a usage in submarines.

Japan is certainly capable of developing and building SSN´s based on an enlarged hull of their excellent improved Oyashio class (already quite big SSK with 3000 ts dived) featuring an advanced type 212 like vessel and a stealthy shaped sail. The remaining question will be whether Japan is determined to invest the necessary amount of time and money for having a small but potent force of up to six SSN around the timeframe of 2015-18. After considering the huge financial and political costs the creation of two new 8 for 8 groups with new AIP tech supported post-Oyashio SSK until 2018 is much more likely if the overall strategic situation for Japan remains relatively stable.

P.S.: Taiwan currently has neither the capability, nor the financial resources, nor the political will for building modern SSK in their own yards but perhaps in 5,10 or 15 years the people on Taiwan will probably be happy for not having wasted billions of US dollars in an arms race where simply the iron rules of the shifting international power balance are inevitably preventing Taiwan from effectively competing in let alone winning this kind of competition. :nono:
 
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zhou

Just Hatched
Registered Member
The answer is maybe yes maybe no,it depends on if the US would pay for the cost.If US sold it to Taiwan, it will find N.Korea(or Iran) suddenly had a long rang misslle that can hit Califorlia,or Iran had its A-bom,or Cuba had a "Yuan" class SSK.In a word,political reasons decide the deal.:D
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
Taiwan currently has neither the capability, nor the financial resources, nor the political will for building modern SSK in their own yards but perhaps in 5,10 or 15 years the people on Taiwan will probably be happy for not having wasted billions of US dollars in an arms race where simply the iron rules of the shifting international power balance are inevitably preventing Taiwan from effectively competing in let alone winning this kind of competition.

Is it me, or is there a broken record player on this forum that is stuck on a single track? I think we're hearing the "Taiwan might as well disarm because it can never stop China" song again! :roll:

Personally I do think Taiwan has the financial resources and the political will to make SSKs - the KMT have said they like the idea of the submarines being built locally. The problem is the fact they don't have a design they can use at the moment. A fatal problem, certainly - but that doesn't mean the other two issues are a problem as well. Indeed when it comes to political will I think it is greater for them being built in Taiwan than elsewhere, as there would be extra jobs created.

adeptitus, You said it! I wouldn't discount the possibility that Japan too one day turns hostile to the US!

I would if you want to remain within the realms of common-sense......
 
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