Ukrainian War Developments

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Mirabo

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That's a nice thesis. It just has one little problem: it assumes European countries are sovereign. Every head of state of a European country might as well have "Property of the United States" tattooed on his or her forehead.

I'm optimistic because things must get worse before they get better. When things get worse, policymakers will be forced to make decisions that they never thought could become reality.

After Putin is done with Ukraine, what will Europe look like? Germany will continue to pay exorbitant prices for gas, or Russia will turn off the taps and send Germany into recession overnight. Poland will continue to cry for help, and at the direction of the US, NATO will continue to pour manpower and equipment into Eastern Europe.

Those are some of the more predictable consequences in the event of a Russian victory. But what happens next?

When American politicians raise the possibility of stationing nuclear arms in Poland, and it becomes abundantly clear that Poland could be razed to the ground in a battle between East and West, will they stand up for themselves, or will they continue dancing to America's tune? When it becomes clear to Germany that their time has run out, and that they must choose between economic survival or becoming a ritual sacrifice, what will they choose?

As much as I hate to make assumptions, let's advance this thought experiment one step further. Pessimistically, we assume that Germany and Poland give in to American pressure. The German economy is badly hurt, and all of Western Europe feel the effects, and Poland becomes the subject of every general's war plans as new a Iron Curtain runs down the Polish border. With a looming crisis that could make 2009 look like a joke, the EU is distinctly at risk of falling apart.

Now what? Will France, Germany, and the rest of Western Europe continue to kowtow to their American overlords? Will they quietly accept the collapse of the magnum opus of neoliberal institutionalism of the 20th century, the European Economic Community? The one organization that Europe had benefited so much from? A fundamental proof that liberal internationalism can and did create better lives?

European trade, safety standards, economic protocol, freedom of movement, all of these luxuries are enshrined in the being of the European Union that Europeans have taken for granted. Faced with the prospect of losing fifty-odd successful years of European engagement, will France, Germany, Poland, and the rest of Europe continue to blindly let America drive them off a metaphorical cliff, destroying European society as we know it once and for all? Or will European leaders finally grow a spine and stand up for themselves?

I don't pretend to know the answer. It's just interesting to think about, if mildly depressing. I understand that European leaders today have limited agency, that much is obvious. But I believe that is because the suffering hasn't yet arrived at their doorstep. The consequences of American overreach and Russian attempts to restore a balance of power remain contained in Ukraine, for now.

Still, I believe in a future for Europe, because when they arrive at a critical, existential juncture, they have a choice, the European Union, a proven alternative to the destructiveness of American hegemony. Not all countries are so fortunate to have such a choice. Ukraine certainly didn't - NATO or the EU, for them, was purely an empty promise. But France, Germany, Poland, and the rest of Europe all have so, so much to lose.
 
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Tianlong

New Member
Registered Member
I'm optimistic because things must get worse before they get better. When things get worse, policymakers will be forced to make decisions that they never thought could become reality.

After Putin is done with Ukraine, what will Europe look like? Germany will continue to pay exorbitant prices for gas, or Russia will turn off the taps and send Germany into recession overnight. Poland will continue to cry for help, and at the direction of the US, NATO will continue to pour manpower and equipment into Eastern Europe.

Those are some of the more predictable consequences in the event of a Russian victory. But what happens next?

When American politicians raise the possibility of stationing nuclear arms in Poland, and it becomes abundantly clear that Poland could be razed to the ground in a battle between East and West, will they stand up for themselves, or will they continue dancing to America's tune? When it becomes clear to Germany that their time has run out, and that they must choose between econonic survival or becoming a ritual sacrifice, what will they choose?

As much as I hate to make assumptions, let's advance this thought experiment one step further. Pessimistically, we assume that Germany and Poland give in to American pressure. The German economy is badly hurt, and all of Western Europe feel the effects, and Poland becomes the subject of every general's war plans as new Iron Curtain runs down the Polish border. With a looming crisis that could make 2009 look like a joke, the EU is distinctly at risk of falling apart.

Now what? Will France, Germany, and the rest of Western continue to kowtow to their American overlords? Will they quietly accept the collapse of the magnum opus of neoliberal instituitonalism of the 20th century, the European Economic Community? The one organization that Europe had benefited so much from? A fundamental proof that liberal internationalism can and did create better lives?

European trade, safety standards, economic protocol, freedom of movement, all of these luxuries are enshrined in the being of the European Union that Europeans have taken for granted. Faced with the prospect of losing fifty-odd successful years of European engagement, will France, Germany, Poland, and the rest of Europe continue to blindly let America drive them off a metaphorical cliff, destroying European society as we know it once and for all? Or will European leaders finally grow a spine and stand up for themselves?

I don't pretend to know the answer. It's just interesting to think about, if mildly depressing. I understand that European leaders today have limited agency, that much is obvious. But I believe that is because the suffering hasn't yet arrived at their doorstep. The consequences of American overreach and Russian attempts to restore a balance of power remain contained in Ukraine, for now.

Still, I believe in a future for Europe, because when they arrive at a critical, existential juncture, they have a choice, the European Union, a proven alternative to the destructiveness of American hegemony. Not all countries are so fortunate to have such a choice. Ukraine certainly didn't - NATO or the EU, for them, was purely an empty promise. But France, Germany, Poland, and the rest of Europe all have so, so much to lose.
I applaud your post.

True european sovereignty and the establishment of a balanced relationship between the EU, Russia and China, eye to eye, might still be possible. And it is the nightmare fuel of the USA.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
although I strongly support China staying out of the Ukrainian war mess except helping broker peace and settlement, I am deeply sympathetic to Ukrainians that are on their way or already part of China (through either immigration or marriage). I seriously hope Beijing will be generous in letting the families of Ukrainian expats China settle in China.
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You are talking about two cases. First, Ukrainian having family relationship with Chinese citizens. Second, Ukrainian resides in China today without family relationship with Chinese citizens.

For the first case, their spouses, children and parents in law in Ukraine were given equal opportunity as other Chinese citizens to be evacuated by Chinese government. Following is from Chinese embassy's notification. Note, it is not limited to Ukrainian citizens.

According to Chinese immigration law and nationality law, relatives of Chinese citizens have the right to get resident permit or apply for Chinese citizenship if they will. So they are pretty safe if they choose to go to China.

1647904525626.png
 

enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wonder if orbits of stat links are close enough that releasing a bucket of sand into the right orbit can take out an entire slew of them?

Not sure if starlinks are bunched up enough, but very very fine sand/dust maybe be good ASAT weapon. The kill mechanism is basically to sand blast the exposed antenna, thus disabling the satellite without disintegrating it, no Kessler syndrome. And fine sand having high drag will deorbit themselves fairly soon as well.

I think the most cost effective way to deal with small sate is to lase them, don't even need to burn them out outright, just cook them with laser for a while causing thermal management to fail. Lets see who's faster and cheaper, Falcon-9 or my pew pew laser?
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
refugees from Ukraine should be screened for fascist ties. Azob directly aided and abetted Hong Kong rioters in the past; how do we know there won't be saboteurs and provacateurs disguised as refugees?
We are talking about Ukrainians who live in China as students, professionals and business people. These people are ordinary people with their background being screened for years by their schools and Chinese employers. Those Nazi bone heads won't even be able to get visas, nor would they marry Chinese to sneak in.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think it would be a decent thing to do for China to grant longer term visas to them, if they don't already have it. Maybe even provide some stipend for students to make sure they could finish their studies in China in such trying times.
Actually, China has done what you suggested in the past to foreigners in China in the past in similar situations, such as Lebanese and Palestinians and Vietnamese as early as the 1970s and 1980s. Some of them have acquired Chinese citizenship.
 

FriedButter

Major
Registered Member
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Ukraine says any deal with Russia would be put to a referendum​

Any historic agreements reached during negotiations would have to be approved by all Ukrainians, President Zelensky says

“I explained to all the negotiating groups: when you talk about all these changes, and they might be historic, we will not go anywhere, we will come to a referendum,” Zelensky told the Ukrainian public broadcaster in an interview.

Zelenskyy throwing the football to the the average joe. Only problem is. How the hell do you vote with this much disruption and refugees? Does the DPR and LPR get a vote? Operation Human Shield is proceeding as planned.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't get why some people seem to be ignoring the fact that MAD works MUTUALLY. By your logic, the US could just nuke Kaliningrad and demand from the Kremlin to accept Georgia and Ukraine into NATO along with a Belarusian regime change by nuclear ultimatum.
Where comes the idea from that Russians are so keen on burning in nuclear fire?
Russia has less to lose. They can destroy 8x more lives and 20x more GDP than they can lose total, so it's not worth it to start an exchange with them if there's alternatives even if it means swallowing a tactical defeat or unequal treaty.

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:
Within ten years, we shall have the means to kill 80 million Russians. I truly believe that one does not light-heartedly attack people who are able to kill 80 million Russians, even if one can kill 800 million French, that is if there were 800 million French.

Vladimir Putin:
Within ten seconds, we shall have the means to kill 800 million westerners. I truly believe that one does not light-heartedly attack people who are able to kill 800 million westerners, even if one can kill 800 million Russians, that is if there were 800 million Russians.
 

enroger

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Zelenskyy throwing the football to the the average joe. Only problem is. How the hell do you vote with this much disruption and refugees? Does the DPR and LPR get a vote? Operation Human Shield is proceeding as planned.

lol what a clown, he can't take the responsibility of it so kick the ball to the "people". Folks this is the true face of democracy, disgusting
 
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