Ukrainian War Developments

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Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Geez, i guess colour revolutions in multiple countries never happened eh?
So you are saying China should risk it's relationship with US and supply military aid to Russia's Ukraine War in order to avoid Regime Change due to Color Revolutions?

That... doesn't make sense. Military aid to Ukraine war is separate from Color Revolutions in Russia.... I don't see the connection.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
Italian workers at the Galilei Airport of Pisa refuse to load air cargos onto "humanitarian flights" heading for Ukraine after they found the crates full of weapons, munitions and explosives.

The “warfighting” circular of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the Italian Army, which imparts new operational instructions to all commands “in order to respond to the needs dictated by the changing international context which is being closely watched by everyone,” has immediately had a wide echo from the online media. One can’t say the same about the complaint from a group of employees at the Galilei Airport of Pisa.

The workers, who are tasked with loading and unloading goods, discovered that the flights departing from the airport towards Ukraine weren’t only humanitarian flights with food and medicines for the Ukrainian population. When they found themselves loading crates full of various types of weapons, ammunition and explosives, they refused to load the material, reporting the incident to the USB union.

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ArmchairAnalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
I disagree with the conclusion. Any temporary field camps in the attempted cutoff south of Mykolaiv is going to be subject to risk of an uncontested landing from Russian Marines hitting their rear like Incheon and supplies taken out by Russian Navy Kalibrs. Ukraine losing their navy is a huge blow. It leaves any offensive near the coast at risk of cutoff by a landing.

I take those conclusions with a pint of salt myself - seems a bit too rose-tinted.
Still less than most.
That said, I really like the minute detail of the maps and find that they give us a good and somewhat comprehensive overview of the current battle field.
Thus worth sharing.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
So you are saying China should risk it's relationship with US and supply military aid to Russia's Ukraine War in order to avoid Regime Change due to Color Revolutions?

That... doesn't make sense. Military aid to Ukraine war is separate from Color Revolutions in Russia.... I don't see the connection.
What relationship with the US?
Dude, what caused colour revolutions? Poor economic development/conditions is the main culprit. Those society just need a little push to go boom
 

Darkon112

Junior Member
Registered Member
Not supporting Russia can lead to existential issues for China (the West’s actions in the last few years have amply demonstrated that). No price is worth endangering the survival of China.

Indeed, If Russia is going to fail with their gamble and if by a small chance it's going to fall to the degree as in the 90's. That means a market that will be closed for China. As well the resources and Russia might end up as additional springboard to NATO. Then of course the access and influences NATO will have on kazakhstan, Mongolia, etc.

Then of course there is India! Modi stupidly might have used Chinese as a boogeyman and Western NGO's did their job in India also towards that regard. Nor has China helped it's image there for that matter. Right now though you can bet your ass he doesn't want Russia to collapse either. Because it will leave him with no choice but to go fully in with the west. Same for middle east which right now see a opportunity to reduce themselves from American influences there. And right now they are are watching gentleman. Both Russia and especially China.


BTW, if Russia will fail as long as it won't collapse like in the 90's and not likely it will as neither the population and military will let it as the 90's are well remembered. And chances Medvedev will take over. It's still is a win for the Chinese since Russians then will get even closer to the Chinese.
 

Phead128

Captain
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What relationship with the US?
Dude, what caused colour revolutions? Poor economic development/conditions is the main culprit. Those society just need a little push to go boom
What does US fomenting a Color Revolution in Russia have to do with Chinese military aid to the Ukrainian war?

Are you saying that US sanctions can cause poor economic conditions for Color Revolution in Russia? What about US sanctions in Iran and North Korea, where are the color revolutions there? China can provide partial economic support to keep Russia afloat, but why is military aid necessary for Ukrainian war?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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I disagree with this on a number of levels. Ideologically, I think this is very much China's fight. In The Narrative(tm), Ukraine is an exemplary democracy and bastion of civilization standing against the Asiatic horde. Not only is it disgustingly racist, it's a complete fabrication. Ukraine's government makes Russia's look squeaky clean and it's been perpetrating crimes against humanity with abandon in the Donbass for the last eight years. No matter how false and morally repugnant the narrative is, it's the prevailing narrative in the West - which means the "exemplary democracy" must fall, and China must be seen to have a hand in its fall. This will have a powerful demoralizing effect on the enemy.

Let's say some miracle occurs and Ukraine "wins" (however one defines that). The West will be galvanized and emboldened. It will see that if it stands united it can still shape the world in its favour and will look to continue its crusade. Who's the next target of that crusade, do you think? People develop gambling addictions by winning, not losing; that's why the West can't be allowed to win.


The idea of supplying Russia with arms in support of its operations in Ukraine, places China and the US/Europe as fighting a proxy war in that theater.

If there was low to minimal risk of facing economic and geopolitical blowback in other domains -- specifically, China and US/Europe undergoing a sudden and painful economic/industrial/technological divorcing from each other similar to what Russia has experienced -- then the possibility of China assisting Russia might be more palatable.

However, I think the risk of a sudden economic/industrial/technological separation is too great and events are too fluid for China to consider the idea of supporting lethal arms to Russia to be worth the costs.


Economic/industrial/technological separation will be painful for China as well as the west -- however for China, I suspect there are only certain things for which it is willing to bear that pain for.
The most likely one, is in event of a Taiwan conflict.
Taiwan's political status, as the overriding primary core interest of China, is naturally going to worth whatever pain or complications it may entail.

Is supporting Russia in Ukraine worth pulling out the pin in that particular grenade at this stage?



On a strategic level, let's imagine that China is waging a war in the Indo-Pacific to establish its predominance. How do you want Russia to think about this? Would you prefer that they think "China stood by us during our trying time, so we'll stand with them now" or "This is an Asian war. Why should Russia bruise itself over it?" This is a great opportunity to deepen the bonds between Russia and China, and those bonds will be needed in the years and decades to come.

In such a scenario, I expect Russia to also pursue its own strategic interests to the limit of their own strategic power, regardless of whether China provided them with military assistance in Ukraine on this occasion.

I don't think anyone in the Chinese government would be opposed to strengthen and deepen bonds between Russia and China.
But doing so by providing military support and arms to Russia at this moment in time, is not the only option to deepen said bonds in the short, medium or long term, and the high potential costs of providing said arms and military support may not be worth the benefits.


China has finite geopolitical and geoeconomic capacity to expend -- is providing military support and arms to Russia right now, really the best use of it?


All this isn't to say that China should not provide geopolitical and geoeconomic and technological support to Russia in a general manner. However, providing military arms or explicit military support, is something else entirely.
 
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Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
I think the biggest factor was 10 years of UN sanctions, not the illegal ones America tries to impose these days. They could only import food and bare basics for oil. Iraq was a failed state at that point. Most people were happy to see the regime go.
So Irak is going good these days ? We will see how Ukraine is going in 20 years...
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
I take those conclusions with a pint of salt myself - seems a bit too rose-tinted.
Still less than most.
That said, I really like the minute detail of the maps and find that they give us a good and somewhat comprehensive overview of the current battle field.
Thus worth sharing.
Seems too many folks don’t understand that all information is to be interpreted critically, and not simply believed.
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
The fall of Mariupol to Russian forces would be a major milestone in the conflict. It will free up forces for a northern offensive and the bulk of Ukranian forces in the East will face encirclement.

Russian forces would be able to consolidate their logistics network in Eastern Ukraine and push linearly in the East until they reach Kyiv. They will be in a much better logistical position once railways can be utilized and road networks under their control can be connected.
Screenshot_20220319-204820_Reddit.jpg
 
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