Ukrainian War Developments

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Phead128

Phead128

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solarz said:
Well ok, on that note, there's a critical difference with Crimea: it used to belong to Russia, but the Soviet Union gave it to Ukraine while both Russia and Ukraine were under the Soviet Union.
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and did Russia recognize Crimea as part of Ukraine between 1989 until 2014?

"It used to belong to us." is a slippery slope.

It allows the Koreans to reclaim Manchuria/Gando because of Goguryeo/Balhae legacy.
It allows the Outer Mongolians to reclaim Inner Mongolia because of the Yuan dynasty (or all of China for that matter).
It allows China to reclaim Vietnam because of 1,200 years of Chinese domination of Vietnam.

Just in principle, it's just bad to justify annexation because: "We used to own it (at one point in time)" because who is preventing the revival of Mongol empire or British empire?
solarz said:
After the dissolution of USSR, for all practical purposes, Ukraine kept Crimea while Russia kept their naval base in Crimea. The closest analogy with China would be Japan keeping Diaoyu Island, so no, I don't see this as Russian aggression at all.
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Except Russia recognized Crimea as part of Ukraine between 1989 until 2014. China never recognized Diaoyutai as part of Japan between 1945 until present day.

Russia had to engineer a complex "Crimean Referendum" (vote to join Russia) to legitimize it's annexation, whereas China doesn't need to make fancy justifications, it can just point to Qing-era maps.
 
Phead128

Phead128

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Moderator - World Affairs
taxiya said:
You are letting your emotion of history to determine your life and well-being today. Who would you buddy up if you have to make a choice?
  • The guy whose grand father took a chunk of your farmland 100 years ago. Or the guy who puts a knife at your throat and a gun at your heart right now?
  • The guy who is harmless now. Or the guy who is able to and going to kill you in a blink of eye if given the chance?
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Fair enough, I agree, if China was to force to choose between Russia or West, it would choose Russia, because it's the least baddie among the two bad options.

taxiya said:
All Chinese know the history that you just described . But you are certainly the minority among Chinese, evident from this thread, in making a judgement of who China is to befriend with.
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China can be friends with Russia, but China should be cautious and never form a formal treaty alliance with Russia, because they are untrustworthy as a formal treaty ally (see Unequal Treaties, Sino-Soviet Split, Lost Territories).

taxiya said:
You are born and grew up in a British built environment (education, media, culture) whose 1st purpose was/is to make Hongkonger to hate any opponent of the west, that includes not only PRC but Russia too. Putting a wedge between any two anti-west countries are the central point of the west's brainwashing activity.
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Using your logic, anyone who opposes Russia is by default a "brainwashed Westerner", then I guess Mao Zedong is also a "brainwashed Westerner" since he initiated the Sino-Soviet Split which opposed Russia.

Or maybe because Mao Zedong is a Chinese nationalist and can see Imperialism/Revionists in plain sight.
taxiya said:
People from Mainland China know not only what Czarist Russia did, BUT ALSO what the British (and USA) did since 1849 all the way to Hongkong 2020. So yes the Russians are doing something not fully complying principles, but most Chinese are glad that the Russians are messing up the US or its puppet.
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Unfortunately, anti-Americanism (or anti-West) was an insufficient glue binding China and Soviet Union, and will likely be an insufficient glue binding China and Russia as well.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Phead128 said:
and did Russia recognize Crimea as part of Ukraine between 1989 until 2014?

"It used to belong to us." is a slippery slope.

It allows the Koreans to reclaim Manchuria/Gando because of Goguryeo/Balhae legacy.
It allows the Outer Mongolians to reclaim Inner Mongolia because of the Yuan dynasty (or all of China for that matter).
It allows China to reclaim Vietnam because of 1,200 years of Chinese domination of Vietnam.

Just in principle, it's just bad to justify annexation because: "We used to own it (at one point in time)" because who is preventing the revival of Mongol empire or British empire?


Except Russia recognized Crimea as part of Ukraine between 1989 until 2014. China never recognized Diaoyutai as part of Japan between 1945 until present day.

Russia had to engineer a complex "Crimean Referendum" (vote to join Russia) to legitimize it's annexation, whereas China doesn't need to make fancy justifications, it can just point to Qing-era maps.
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What's so complex about 83% of Crimeans coming out to vote 96.77% in favor of joining Russia?

China points to historical maps because it doesn't recognize separatism by referendum, which is also why it did not come out in support of the annexation.
 
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pmc

Major
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Phead128 said:
Using your logic, anyone who opposes Russia is by default a "brainwashed Westerner", then I guess Mao Zedong is also a "brainwashed Westerner" since he initiated the Sino-Soviet Split which opposed Russia.

Or maybe because Mao Zedong is a Chinese nationalist and can see Imperialism/Revionists in plain sight.
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Chairman Mao had a split with Ukrainian leadership of Soviets. Soviet Union upper echelon had Ukranian/Turkic/Jews people in power. That Tatar strait name across Vladivostok . these are real warriors in that forces.
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Alishar Usmanov, Suleyman Kerimov, Iskander Makhmudov, Zarakh Iliev and countless others Russian billionaires have same origin. Those people are most likely influence policies and i presume they will be significant in actual military.
Ukraine will be out of luck if they have to deal with Golden hordes.

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reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
Anlsvrthng said:
The stupidity of the UK and the EU reaching new height.

The ICE natural gas contracts reached 327 pence/therm , it is roughtly ten times higher than the USA price.

And what is the most important of the fools ? Antagonize Russia more.

I mean, who care about Ukraine ?
But I definitivly care about the gas price.

And by the sequence of events the Russians reached the level when they don't want to sell gas throught Ukriane and on the spot markets of the EU.

And the answer of the European Jesters ?
Prepare sanctions and stop the NS2.

NOT say starta talk with russia, hear they request, try to establish a contract with the biggest suplier that actually fit they need as well.

Or it they care that much about the ukraine gas transit then why not buy the gas on the Ukrainan - Russian border, and make the transfer contract between EU-Ukraine ?
Maybe Ukraine can't be trusted that much ?
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When you eliminates the impossible, what remains must be the truth. Why would Europe take out a blunt kitchen knife and start cutting its own throat? The answer is, it is not in control of its own destiny. The U.S. is pulling the string behind these groups that now come to power (in Germany, for example). All the slogans of going green etc. are just a cover for the people behind pulling the strings, which is the U.S. government. To a lesser extend, the same thing that is currently happening to Ukraine is also happening to a various degree throughout Europe. Once in a while, you get a strong leader like Merkel who will stand up to the U.S. to some degree for their own country. Invariably, the next group swing the other way, to the detriment of their own country. Hopefully, the new leaders will care about Europe more than the leaders of Ukraine care about Ukraine.
 
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sndef888

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One thing I learnt from the past few years reading up on politics: there is no such thing as whether an annexation is justified or not justified. Only who has the desire and will to control a region.

America and France basically have south america and west africa respectively as their colonies. Yet nobody can do anything because they are powerful.
 
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Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Abominable said:
I agree it would be unwise for China to be too pro Russian in eastern Europe.

The current policy of abstaining on resolutions supporting or condemning Russian actions is correct.
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Well yes. China has a reputation to protect after all. Land grabbing is not a good thing and it shouldn't be encouraged. And if China's smaller neighbours see China shamelessly voting for land grabbing, then they would inevitably start guarding against it (even more than what they do now). This would open the door to more US military presence

So a good middle ground is that it abstains from voting. Abstain is good, voting is not good.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Overbom said:
Well yes. China has a reputation to protect after all. Land grabbing is not a good thing and it shouldn't be encouraged. And if China's smaller neighbours see China shamelessly voting for land grabbing, then they would inevitably start guarding against it (even more than what they do now). This would open the door to more US military presence

So a good middle ground is that it abstains from voting. Abstain is good, voting is not good.
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Voting at the UN is just diplomacy. Such gestures don't cost anything.

Real support comes in the form of business ties and military cooperation, of which there are plenty between China and Russia.
 
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Overbom

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solarz said:
Voting at the UN is just diplomacy. Such gestures don't cost anything.

Real support comes in the form of business ties and military cooperation, of which there are plenty between China and Russia.
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Indeed. If China is not prepared to pressure Russia to leave Crimea, then then the whole UN thing is just a show. Mind you, China would never do that, so in the end it doesn't matter

To be fair though, for China these Russian "mini-adventures" are good for it. It distracts the EU and US and gives China more space to act in the rest of the world

So maybe I am cynical, but I am not that bothered with the whole "Russia is going to invade Ukraine" story
 
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