UK Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

kwaigonegin

Colonel
If you read whole article , you would see that RAF had whole situation under control . Do you really expect that whole RN should mobilize every time Russian (Chinese , Indian ... ) warship comes close to British territorial waters ? On the other hand , SIGINT operations are completely normal - Russians do them , and so do British , Americans etc ...

Tracking a ship has nothing to do with being 'in control'. The RAF could've had advanced memo and tracked the ship all the way from the Severomorsk. The fact is (according to the article) a fully loaded Slava cruiser came withing 30 miles of Scotland and basically just sat and waited for the Type 45 to come and intercept many many hours later! and then merrily sailed away. It doesn't matter if there were a couple of SSN lurking underneath or RAF knew exactly where it was.. the fact that it wasn't even intercepted and tailed by another surface combatant is an embarrassment.

It's no different than air interception. During the cold war Russian Tu-95 regularly fly missions very close to NATO airspace but EVERYTIME you still have quick reaction alert fighters scrambled to intercept and they always carry live ordnance.
I guarantee you a Russian or any country's warship will never get withing 30 miles of US coast without being tailed by at least a couple of other surface combatants and other 'unseen' assets.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The fact is (according to the article) a fully loaded Slava cruiser came withing 30 miles of Scotland and basically just sat and waited for the Type 45 to come many many hours later! It doesn't matter if there were a couple of SSN lurking underneath or RAF knew exactly where it was.. the fact that it wasn't even intercepted and tailed by another surface combatant is an embarrassment.

I guarantee you a Russian or any country's warship will never get withing 30 miles of US coast without being tailed by at least a couple of other surface combatants and other 'unseen' assets.
Well, I would not so quickly dismiss a Royal Navy Trafalgar Class SSN being in the area, and probably right on the Slava Cruiser. The SSN could easily have "intercepted" the Slava and made its presence known. We just do not know those details.

Same is true of the RAF. The RAF could also easily have also contacted the Slava and ensured they knew they were there and were monitoring them.

Having said that, the Royal Navy should certainly have had some vessel intercept the Slava long before it got that close. The have Type 26, Duke Class frigates, which are very decent vessels themselves, which were based closer than the Type 45, Daring DDGs, so I do not know why they did not dispatch one.

As to the US Navy...you are exactly right.

We had an example of this in November of 2013, and it wasn't even a surface combatant, it was a Sierra II SSN (which tells you a lot about the US Navy's underwater detections capabilities).

CNN said:
US Navy detects Russian sub off U.S. East Coast

By Mike Mount

The U.S. Navy detected and tracked a Russian nuclear-powered attack submarine less than 300 miles from the southern U.S. East Coast last month, according to U.S. defense officials.

While the submarine did not enter U.S. territorial waters or follow any U.S. Navy ships, its arrival came while a Navy carrier strike group was training off Florida, according to defense officials who could not speak publicly because of the sensitivity of the issue.

The move by the Russians to put the ship close to the U.S. demonstrates its desire to ramp up deep-water patrolling by its submarine fleet - something the Russian government has said it would do, officials said.

The newer Sierra-2 submarine is thought to be part of the Russian Northern Fleet, and this is the first time this class of sub has been detected this close to the U.S., the officials said.

The sub was discovered about 275 miles off the southern East Coast in international waters about two weeks ago and has been followed by the Navy since, defense officials said. Officials said the sub did not come close to the major U.S. Navy submarine base at Kings Bay, Georgia, home to attack and ballistic missile submarines.

"Things worked the way they were supposed to," according to one of the officials when referencing how the Navy discovered the submarine.

While the officials would not disclose how the submarine was detected, the Navy has sensors in the air and water to detect and track such vessels.

The submarine has since turned back, and on Tuesday, it was about 600 miles off the U.S. coast heading eastward toward Europe, according to Navy officials.

It is not clear what the submarine was doing this close to the U.S., but officials say they assume it was conducting anti-submarine exercises, a return to a Cold War activity.

"They are doing what the U.S. does, patrolling and conducting exercises," one of the officials told Security Clearance.

The detection of the sub was first reported in the Washington Free Beacon.

The Sierra-2 is similar to the U.S. Los Angeles-class attack submarine and does not carry ballistic missiles - only torpedoes and other anti-submarine weapons.

The last time a Russian sub was detected close to the United States was in 2009, according to defense officials.
My problem with this report is that the US Navy made this announcement. They should have said nothing and just intercepted the thing, either with surface, air, or sub-surface assets.

Letting the world know that we knew about the Ruskie at that range without any vessels nearby, and then intercepted it based on that knowledge, says too much about the capabilities and will allow a good G2 team on the other side to start figuring out the various ways that is happening.

Some of that may be going on with the UK and the Royal Navy. Not announcing to the press anything of importance, and letting the presumption be something less than what they are capable of.

That's how that game is played...something the Obama administration, IMHO, has been very weak at...allowing far too much info to be deciminated in such conditions (ie. the Bin Laden operation).
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Tracking a ship has nothing to do with being 'in control'. The RAF could've had advanced memo and tracked the ship all the way from the Severomorsk. The fact is (according to the article) a fully loaded Slava cruiser came withing 30 miles of Scotland and basically just sat and waited for the Type 45 to come and intercept many many hours later! and then merrily sailed away. It doesn't matter if there were a couple of SSN lurking underneath or RAF knew exactly where it was.. the fact that it wasn't even intercepted and tailed by another surface combatant is an embarrassment.

Well look here :D Britain is squandering tons of money on two aircraft carriers , escorts , airplanes etc .... Instead they could have built one and spent rest of the money on corvettes and light frigates to "be in control" of their own shoreline . If you want to be "imperial" navy poking nose in other's people businesses , then you could expect them to return favor ;)
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Well look here :D Britain is squandering tons of money on two aircraft carriers , escorts , airplanes etc .... Instead they could have built one and spent rest of the money on corvettes and light frigates to "be in control" of their own shoreline . If you want to be "imperial" navy poking nose in other's people businesses , then you could expect them to return favor ;)
They have 13 frigates, 6 destroyers and 7 SSNs. Plenty to monitor and control the space around the UK.

They chose to send the Type 045 up there, and my guess is that they had ample assets covering the Slava the entire time.

The news outlets just focused on the picture of the Slava getting 30 miles off coast and being intercepted by the Type 45. And, as I said in an earlier post, this may well have been exactly what the RN wanted them to focus on.

No need to go into the "Imperial," West pokes its nose into other people's business rant. All major maritime powers with true blue water capabilities are perceived as doing that on occasion. Throwing those barbs around will just ignite flame wars, and we do not need that.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Tracking a ship has nothing to do with being 'in control'. The RAF could've had advanced memo and tracked the ship all the way from the Severomorsk. The fact is (according to the article) a fully loaded Slava cruiser came withing 30 miles of Scotland and basically just sat and waited for the Type 45 to come and intercept many many hours later! and then merrily sailed away. It doesn't matter if there were a couple of SSN lurking underneath or RAF knew exactly where it was.. the fact that it wasn't even intercepted and tailed by another surface combatant is an embarrassment.

It's no different than air interception. During the cold war Russian Tu-95 regularly fly missions very close to NATO airspace but EVERYTIME you still have quick reaction alert fighters scrambled to intercept and they always carry live ordnance.
I guarantee you a Russian or any country's warship will never get withing 30 miles of US coast without being tailed by at least a couple of other surface combatants and other 'unseen' assets.

HMS Swiftsure in the late 1970s was the first submarine ever to get full pictures and acoustic signatures of the Kiev Class carrier of the Soviet Navy right in the middle of a huge Soviet naval excercise in the Barrents Sea

This information was recently declassified and part of the documentary about the Royal Navy in the programme called "Silent war" on BBC in a two part documentary just google it or catch up on BBC iplayer

Royal Navy passed this info to USN and UK could almost guarantee that in a opening war with the Soviet Union they could detect, track and sink major Soviet carriers and cruisers without Soviets even firing a shot in the North Sea

HMS Swiftsure was just 10 feet below the Kiev Class and Soviets never even knew it was there and they were conducting a ASW excercise!

Royal Navy SSN captains are a breed above the rest, very highly skilled and trained you can bet your bottom dollar the Slava Class could be sunk within minutes if the order came, they are experts in tracking warships they have done it for decades anyone who thinks otherwise is in for a nasty suprise

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thunderchief

Senior Member
They have 13 frigates, 6 destroyers and 7 SSNs. Plenty to monitor and control the space around the UK.

They chose to send the Type 045 up there, and my guess is that they had ample assets covering the Slava the entire time.

The news outlets just focused on the picture of the Slava getting 30 miles off coast and being intercepted by the Type 45. And, as I said in an earlier post, this may well have been exactly what the RN wanted them to focus on.

No need to go into the "Imperial," West pokes its nose into other people's business rant. All major maritime powers with true blue water capabilities are perceived as doing that on occasion. Throwing those barbs around will just ignite flame wars, and we do not need that.

Some forum members (and article itself) assert that RN don't have enough ships . I myself don't believe in that . On the other hand , if Britain wants to project power around the world , then they should first project power around their own homeland . British ships often stay 30 miles from other countries shores , so British press should not cry foul if other countries do same thing to Britain .
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Well look here :D Britain is squandering tons of money on two aircraft carriers , escorts , airplanes etc .... Instead they could have built one and spent rest of the money on corvettes and light frigates to "be in control" of their own shoreline . If you want to be "imperial" navy poking nose in other's people businesses , then you could expect them to return favor ;)

Put it this way without those two carriers the rest of Europe would be facing down the Russians by themselves and that too with out any decent carriers, UK geographically is in a good position to control what Russia does

The transit choke points between Greenland and Iceland and the UK in the north are water ways the UK can shut off to stop Russia from breaking out into the deeper Atlantic RN SSN know all the under water features where to hide where to dive and where to engage they know it all and no way Russian are going to get through the English Channel

As a matter of fact many people say UK can't "afford" to have carriers I would say UK cant afford NOT to have carriers
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Put it this way without those two carriers the rest of Europe would be facing down the Russians by themselves and that too with out any decent carriers, UK geographically is in a good position to control what Russia does

The transit choke points between Greenland and Iceland and the UK in the north are water ways the UK can shut off to stop Russia from breaking out into the deeper Atlantic RN SSN know all the under water features where to hide where to dive and where to engage they know it all and no way Russian are going to get through the English Channel

As a matter of fact many people say UK can't "afford" to have carriers I would say UK cant afford NOT to have carriers


Europeans won't be facing down Russians any time soon , as neither side has neither interests nor means for large scale confrontation (in fact , despite all differences , countries like Germany and Russia are major trading partners) . Only people dreaming about confrontation with Russia are some warmongers in NATO , stuck with Cold War mentality .

As for those two carriers , Britain is building them not to fight Russia (they would be almost useless for that ) but to project power to countries like Libya , Syria etc ... In other words , Britain still wants to be major world power , and you need offensive blue water navy for that .

Only problem with that is : Britain's resources are limited . It doesn't have colonies like India anymore , it is not major industrial power . Therefore , number of warships it could posses is somewhat limited . It is certainly enough to defend British Isles , but it is not enough if you want to send RN all over the world and simultaneously to track every foreign warship that comes near your shore .

Solution for that is simple : either you stop building blue water navy and start building green water navy , or get used to foreign ships prowling near your shore . One historical reminder - even in WW1 when RN was at peak of its power , Germans managed few times to bombard some British coastal towns . That was price to pay for having fleet made of heavy and lumbering battleships made for open sea action .
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Thunderchief I don't think you quite get the whole carrier and naval thing

Another thing is, the UK has to be shown to being something to the table when it comes to the America the special relationship needs some substance, currently French are banging on about thier aircraft carrier all the time UK is left out in the cold this hurts credibility and this is not good for foreign policy which in turn dictates trade and in investment

Two carriers will pay the UK back many times thier worth as does the SSBN fleet, they will likely be the 12th and 13th carriers of the USN why else did they go for F35B? So they could have interoperability with USN

USN will be able to pull on these two whenever they need them this is a big plus for both nations
 
asiq iqbal, thunderchief, interesting encounters! Thud, you even reminded us about Hipper's raids of 1914 ... but look here:
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French and even Italian carrier "conducting operations ... to enhance levels of cooperation and interoperability" Don't you think one more carrier should've been there?
 
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