Type 022 Missile Boat

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

Regardless of whether Japan will join US in any aid to Taiwan in times of conflict, prudent PLA decision makers, & therefore discussions here, must factor in the probability that Japan will, given the close US-Japan relations, rather than make decisions based on hopes that Japan won't.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

joshuatree said:

Any specifics on why you think a pack of 022s can't hunt down a sub in the waters around Taiwan? Is it the lack of sensors? Lack of air launched torpedos? Range? Speed? Just curious.

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Lack of sensors of course. Obviously there's no space for sonar. And why do you want a so fast submarine chaser?

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

szbd said:

Lack of sensors of course. Obviously there's no space for sonar. And why do you want a so fast submarine chaser?

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I see no reason why a 022 hull can't have a modified back so that it doesn't carry any missiles or torpedoes but rather just a towed variable depth sonar. Like a seaborne AWAC. It acts as the eyes and ears for the 022 pack and relays the data via the data links to the other boats.

Any disadvantages to a fast sub chaser? I would think it be more advantageous. The ability to catch up to a sub or to engage a sub and quickly take off before enemy reinforcements.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

I think fast speed makes more sound, thus give out your presence to the enemy subs.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

FugitiveVisions said:

Taiwan being a security issue and promoting peaceful resolutions aint the same as getting involve in a shooting war with your biggest trade partner. It's more of a statement about the growing US Japan alliance in a general sense more than anything else.

...it becomes increasingly clear how such a scenerio is not very plausible

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I am not saying necessarily that it is plausible. Just that it is possible. China would be foolish to not consider this possibility in its planning. Ties between the US and Japan are much much closer than ties between China and Japan. The US is helping Japan immensely in its own self-defense efforts. Look at the equipment that the Japanese employ as a result. That is US AEGIS equipment, those are US F-15 aircraft, etc., etc.

So...given what you yourself describe as the "growing US Japan alliance", and given the long standing disputes that China and Japan have ...it is a possibility that the PLAn will have to consider before embarking on any military venture regarding Taiwan.

That's my only point...and let's all pray that military conflicy over Taiwan never occurs.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

re ASW 022:
I think another problem with the high speed, besides being louder, is that at high speeds, sonar performance dropps significatnly.
The 022 would have to sprint, slow down and listen ... repeat until contact. However, I think that an USN sub would hear the sprinting sub-chaser first. Sweeping the strait with active sonar won't do much better, IMO.
And I don't think the small hull of these boats is optimized for noise-reduction.

Only way I could imagine is a PLAN sub or perhaps SONUS like sensor relaying target info to the pack wich engages from high speed. But probably rather far fetched.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

Jeff, you ignored my arguments.

1. Why would USN put her ships into the attack range of PLAAF? Attack Chinese land targets can be done by cruiser missiles. Close air protection and more can be done by land based aircrafts in Taiwan. Why risk your ships when they can do their jobs a few hundred kms further from the shore? You have to use your CVs to attack PRC's land targets?

2. You ignored my arguments on why Japan will not enter the war with China. What will they benefit from it? What will they lose? What if their super fragile cities and industry centers got hit by Chinse missiles? Where big oil tanks, electricity plants, Chemical factories all densely consentrated within the area of a missile's CEP. Industrial facilities have always been legal targets of US military operations, right? OK US can hit back for them but does it make up anything for them? And US is already hitting, what difference does it make? They will lose their biggest trade partner and some very crucial elements of their production chain, which will be a total disaster of their economy. And I said very clear the PRC leaders can not survive from their own people if they don't give a hell to Japan should it entered war with China. Do I need to explain why?

And Japan will pleasantly take all these just because they love the United States of America, or Taiwan, so much, is that what you are saying?

3. I said "anything other than WMD", means not WMD, I hope my English is not that bad.

4. I explained the Japanese people's view toward war and military coalition with US, not that positive, as you can see. Also, they paid for those US weapon systems, and guarantteed the profit of US companies.

Yes China need to consider the possibility of Japan entering the war. But, the preparation of that will not be any single plane, not any single ship. Just one sentence: I dare you not.

A war with US, we lose. A war with US+Japan, we still lose. What difference does it make? And if Japan does not enter, US can finish the war after protecting Taiwan. If Japan enters, US has to continue the war to protect Japan, if US people loves Japan as much as a fraction of you supposed love from Japanese to US. And that will be nothing but a continuous hitting of Chinese and Japanese civil targets on the land and in the sea. It may continue for years and I am sure Japan will be more miserable than China.

To avoid a war between China and US, and any ally you supposed, is very simple. Just prevent Taiwan from formal independence. When they do, given them pressure together with China to make them give up. If it can't be prevented, the war starts. The US still have a choice because I don't see what benefits US from a war and a long term cold war afterwards with China. After all, Taiwan is not a formal ally with US and US recognized China's view that Taiwan as a part of China. But it seems that you don't look too much into it.

I can see from the history very well that US always react really tough on this kind of events. But I also see it does not always benefit, especially when China stands on the other side.

And China, will not initiate the attack if Taiwan doesn't declare independence. Chinese people love peace much more than US people. Also China does not have the strength to occupy Taiwan fast and smoothly, far from that, as I mensioned in PLAN amphibious assult ability thread.

China is mordenizing her military strength quickly, but without disturbing her economic develpment as well. So when China has the strength in this pace, the whole thing will be different. May be at that time Taiwan already dropped this independence fancy and that is the only way I can see how this problem will be finally solved.

They are still Chinese. It's really funny to see their politicians quoting ancient Chinese aphorisms to argue why they are cultually not Chinese.

Sorry mods, I never thought a wild guess of 022 can lead this far.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

Scratch said:

re ASW 022:
I think another problem with the high speed, besides being louder, is that at high speeds, sonar performance dropps significatnly.
The 022 would have to sprint, slow down and listen ... repeat until contact. However, I think that an USN sub would hear the sprinting sub-chaser first. Sweeping the strait with active sonar won't do much better, IMO.
And I don't think the small hull of these boats is optimized for noise-reduction.

Only way I could imagine is a PLAN sub or perhaps SONUS like sensor relaying target info to the pack wich engages from high speed. But probably rather far fetched.

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I think a pack of 022 in ASW mission would be feasible if like you mentioned, the boats don't sprint till contact has been made. Also, the assumption is you've already put your 022s out there over an area if a conflict occurs, thereby establishing a net or picket line. Not saying the 022s are ideal for ASW but just saying I don't see it costing much when it comes to swapping out anti-ship missiles for torpedoes in those launch boxes. All that is needed is perhaps a specialized 022 with the sonar sensor package. That's a small investment that would widen the 022's usefulness for PLAN.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

joshuatree said:

I think a pack of 022 in ASW mission would be feasible if like you mentioned, the boats don't sprint till contact has been made. Also, the assumption is you've already put your 022s out there over an area if a conflict occurs, thereby establishing a net or picket line. Not saying the 022s are ideal for ASW but just saying I don't see it costing much when it comes to swapping out anti-ship missiles for torpedoes in those launch boxes. All that is needed is perhaps a specialized 022 with the sonar sensor package. That's a small investment that would widen the 022's usefulness for PLAN.

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And you need a lot of super trained crew as well, or have two groups of crews for one boat.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

joshuatree said:

I think a pack of 022 in ASW mission would be feasible if like you mentioned, the boats don't sprint till contact has been made. Also, the assumption is you've already put your 022s out there over an area if a conflict occurs, thereby establishing a net or picket line. Not saying the 022s are ideal for ASW but just saying I don't see it costing much when it comes to swapping out anti-ship missiles for torpedoes in those launch boxes. All that is needed is perhaps a specialized 022 with the sonar sensor package. That's a small investment that would widen the 022's usefulness for PLAN.

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Well, ok considering that PLAN seems to introduce that boat in larger numbers, it might be one option to use them as torpedo trucks, if the admirals consider it expandable.
I wouldn't do it , though. But of course I hold no chinese naval rank.

edit: szbd; I don't really get your last point.
Since those boats will only operate in the littorals and have little time on sea, why two crews? Or what do you mean with super trained?
They perhaps need special tactical training on ASW and maybe sonar operators if they have the sensors. But those are trained anyway ...

szbd said:

1. Why would USN put her ships into the attack range of PLAAF?

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-Being closer to the mainland, enable strikes even further inland.
-The intelligence level of human pilots is still much higher and more flexible than that of CMs, hence they are more usefull (for some tasks) after an initial strike.
-Having assets in the strait is more effective to counter PLA strikes on Taiwan than only interfering from the outside.
-A demonstration of power

On Japan, there my be more in such a decission than just what could one loose/win economicly. Ideology perhaps, certain believes ... besides, the way of history is not a strong evidence that the world is ruled by pure logic ...