Type 022 Missile Boat

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

szbd said:

How could those boats find the subs? And how could they survive from other USN forces covering the subs?

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Again, the premise is that the 022s operate in packs and there will probably be a command ship of some sort, thus the data links.

These ships aren't consider front line ships so to a degree, they are considered expendable. If you lose one or two 022s out of a pack that has successfully sunk a US sub, wouldn't you still consider that a smashing success?

Also, I'm not saying the 022s will be the only force out there in a conflict over Taiwan. But if they pose enough risk to the enemy thereby forcing the enemy to commit some resources to looking out for the 022s, again, mission accomplished. PLAN simply does not have the numbers of front line ships in a conflict with the USN over Taiwan.

As to the original post about landing craft, can the 022 even hold 100 people? I might be wrong but I seriously don't think that boat can even hold 50?

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

joshuatree said:

Again, the premise is that the 022s operate in packs and there will probably be a command ship of some sort, thus the data links.

These ships aren't consider front line ships so to a degree, they are considered expendable. If you lose one or two 022s out of a pack that has successfully sunk a US sub, wouldn't you still consider that a smashing success?

Also, I'm not saying the 022s will be the only force out there in a conflict over Taiwan. But if they pose enough risk to the enemy thereby forcing the enemy to commit some resources to looking out for the 022s, again, mission accomplished. PLAN simply does not have the numbers of front line ships in a conflict with the USN over Taiwan.

As to the original post about landing craft, can the 022 even hold 100 people? I might be wrong but I seriously don't think that boat can even hold 50?

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Well I think lose 10 022 but sank a US sub is still a smashing success. But I just think they can't.

The Hongxing class missle boat has a displacement of 480 ton but very tight space, but it has 60 crews. So I think 022 with a displacement of 250 ton can hold 100 people on board with a small number of crew, if it's a landing craft.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

The 022 FAC is a guided missile boat and not sub chaser (or troop transport). It might be possible to modify it for ASW duties, but I don't think the design is optimal for it.

If we look at the local conditions, the Taiwan Strait is only 180 km across? SSM's like the Moskit and Yakhont (both used on Russian FAC's) can easily cross that distance.

FAC's are a cheap way of increasing your surface fleet's offensive power. They're small and packs a big punch. If the opponent fires an anti-ship missile at you, being smaller means the missile might miss you, or at least fail to score a direct-hit (like the Israeli Corvette in recent action) in critical areas.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

szbd said:

Well I think lose 10 022 but sank a US sub is still a smashing success. But I just think they can't.

The Hongxing class missle boat has a displacement of 480 ton but very tight space, but it has 60 crews. So I think 022 with a displacement of 250 ton can hold 100 people on board with a small number of crew, if it's a landing craft.

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Any specifics on why you think a pack of 022s can't hunt down a sub in the waters around Taiwan? Is it the lack of sensors? Lack of air launched torpedos? Range? Speed? Just curious.

True, you might be able to pack 100 on the 022 like sardines but considering the boat is not a true landing craft, I hope the drop zone won't be under Normandy D-Day conditions, otherwise, it be more like a suicide boat.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

adeptitus said:

The 022 FAC is a guided missile boat and not sub chaser (or troop transport). It might be possible to modify it for ASW duties, but I don't think the design is optimal for it.

If we look at the local conditions, the Taiwan Strait is only 180 km across? SSM's like the Moskit and Yakhont (both used on Russian FAC's) can easily cross that distance.

FAC's are a cheap way of increasing your surface fleet's offensive power. They're small and packs a big punch. If the opponent fires an anti-ship missile at you, being smaller means the missile might miss you, or at least fail to score a direct-hit (like the Israeli Corvette in recent action) in critical areas.

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Oh no doubt the 022 is a guided missile boat, primarily intended for coastal defense. But it does seem the boat can be pressed into secondary roles if needed. And I think if 022s were used in a conflict over Taiwan, I don't think they would just be used in the Strait but even on the east side of Taiwan to disrupt the enemy naval fleet activities. I don't see it being hard to modify for ASW duties. Air launched torpedos exist. Don't think it be that hard to swap the missiles out. Only thing you are missing is the sensor package which could be handled by a mothership. Or, who knows, why can't a 022 hull be modified to just simply carry sensors, like a seaborne AWAC so to speak to coordinate with a pack of 022s?

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

szbd said:

To Jeff, why would USN enter the range of China's land based air assult?

1. It demands aircrafts to defence the fleet, hence less aircrafts in attack mission.

2. Risk, of course.

3. If you wanna attack China's land bases like airfields, harbors, it can be done by crusier missiles..

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The US, and its allies, IF they responded to a military issue over Taiwan, would first have subs in the straits and the seas around Taiwan to supress PLAN submarines and surface vessels...then, the US would move its carriers well within range of China's assets supporting military action against Taiwan. They would use the island itself and the ROCAF to shield those vessels and maintain a heavy CAP as well...like they would do in any war time condition.

They would do this for two simple reasons if they became involved.

1) To protect Taiwan,

2) to destroy the PLAN and PLAAF and PLA assetts supporting military operations against Taiwan.

It is quite likely, in that event, that the US and ROC would get support from the JMSDF.

Let's all hope that nothing like this ever happens and the condition and issue can be resolved peacefully.

In such an exchange, I doubt VERY seriously that the PRC would initiate any WMD use against Japan or the US. That would play to a key US and overwhelming strength the US has, and invite that overwhelming response. No, if it ever comes to it, they will use their tactical and conventional assets to try and overwhelm the ROC before the US or anyone else can respond. But the US and its allies know this and are already moving significaantly more assets into the region on Guam inparticular.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

Japan is as likely to come to America's aid against China as the French are likely to aid America's land invasion of Iran. Aint going to happen folks. From America's perspective, yeah it would be great to have Japan's assets. But Japan is not openly hostile to China, not bound by any kind of policy to aid Taiwan, and does not wish to be trapped in a quagmire against the Communist giant.

If you want to add Japan's navy into the balance, you would then be obligated to take Russia's navy into consideration as well...

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

FugitiveVisions said:

Japan is as likely to come to America's aid against China as the French are likely to aid America's land invasion of Iran. Aint going to happen folks. From America's perspective, yeah it would be great to have Japan's assets. But Japan is not openly hostile to China, not bound by any kind of policy to aid Taiwan, and does not wish to be trapped in a quagmire against the Communist giant.

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Sorry, IMHO, not so far fetched at all given US and Japan bilateral announcements regarding Taiwan security in 2005...which China reacted very strongly to.

To my knowledge, Japan has not retracted this bilateral statement.

China Scolds US said:

China scolds US, Japan on Taiwan
By Hamish McDonald

China has issued a prompt rebuke after Japan for the first time joined the United States in declaring the Taiwan issue to be a common security concern.

The listing of the Taiwan issue came in a formal communique on Saturday after talks in Washington involving the US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, and Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, with Japan's Foreign Minister, Nobutaka Machimura, and Defence Minister, Yoshinori Ono.

The allies said one of their "common strategic objectives" was to "encourage the peaceful resolution of issues concerning the Taiwan Strait through dialogue".

Despite the peaceful tone, Beijing said yesterday that this was interference. "The Chinese Government and people resolutely opposes the United States and Japan in issuing any bilateral document concerning China's Taiwan, which meddles in the internal affairs of China, and hurts China's sovereignty," the Foreign Ministry said.

Almost certainly Beijing would also see Taiwan's inclusion, for the first time, in the ambit of the 50-year-old US-Japan Security Treaty as a step towards Japanese involvement in the defence of Taiwan.

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China blasts Japan for Taiwan Stance said:

China Blasts Japan for Taiwan Stance

by Antoaneta Bezlova
BEIJING – It was Japan and not the United States that bore China's greatest ire after Tokyo and Washington took the unprecedented step over the weekend to declare that Taiwan would be a common security concern.

The inclusion of Taiwan, which China regards as a renegade province, in the list of joint security objectives of the U.S. and Japan has strained further already tense political relations between Beijing and Tokyo.

Coming on the heels of a year marred with deep distrust between the Asia-Pacific's two largest economic powers, the new clash bodes ill for the political climate in the region, according to analysts here.

"Dragging Japan into the U.S.-China disagreement over Taiwan is not a smart move on the U.S. side," said commentator Xie Yong in the official Beijing News. "For the U.S., to close ranks with Japan on such a sensitive territorial issue for China like Taiwan, means to become associated in the Chinese peoples' minds with Japan's history of invasion."

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Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

Although Abe just told Wen in their recent meeting that Japan upholds the one China principle. So hard to say if such a conflict ever came about.

Re: What is the probability that 022 is actually a landing craft?

Taiwan being a security issue and promoting peaceful resolutions aint the same as getting involve in a shooting war with your biggest trade partner. It's more of a statement about the growing US Japan alliance in a general sense more than anything else. Again, America would love to see Japan get involved, but from the Japanese perspective, it just aint going to happen.

And some people even go further as to claim that SK would join the US and Japan in this potential coalition. Ya think the South Koreans are going to join Japan to attack an Asian country after what happened in WWII and giving consideration of its current sentiment towards Japan?

America's calculations, not necessarily those of the policymakers, but of the general public, is too centered on the American point of view. Once you start to see it from an Asian point of view, it becomes increasingly clear how such a scenerio is not very plausible, at least not as plausible as you think.