The War in the Ukraine

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Russia's economy will stand but long term the damage will be massive. Industry and R&D are going to be hit hard.

IMO the only way out for Russia is to economically integrate with China if it wants to survive as a great power (i.e. not becoming a low-value commodity/resource-dominated export country) with advanced industry and R&D


Given the current situation, the biggest showdown will happen in winter. If Europe manages to pass it relatively unscathed, Russia's trajectory for 2023 would be even more bleak than it is now. If Europe folds (I am leaning towards this happening), then Russia wins and gets control of (major) parts of Ukraine with some of the sanctions removed
 

GodRektsNoobs

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't understand how anyone thinks the Russians are winning. They're not losing, but they sure as shit aren't winning:
  • They've sustained almost a 1:1 casualties ratio in spite of fire superiority
  • They've lost 5000+ military vehicles, and this from visual confirmation
  • LPR/DPR are scraping the bottom of the barrel for manpower, and Russia isn't exactly doing that much better at it either.

I suppose 16,000 vs 76,000 (July data) is 1:1 causalty ratio to you, right? Even that 16,000 is based on CIA estimate in August which is most likely exaggerated propaganda much like most US casualty reports. Russians are only claiming ~5000.

But yes, I agree that Russia could have done much better. This war will definitely teach many lessons for future Russian armed forces.
 

TongHua

New Member
Registered Member
If a helicopter in Ukraine is high enough to shoot 15km, it's lifespan will be very short.

The proliferation of SAM's and MANPAD's make altitude suicide.

News flash. LMUR is NLOS. All the pilot has to do is locate the Gepard using the helicopter's radar and send the missile on its way. When the missile is close enough, the TV / thermal camera is deployed to destroy the target. That's why NLOS missiles are getting so popular these days. It enables destruction of targets from safe stand off distances without ever having to sight the target.
 

curiousguy

New Member
Registered Member
Whatever source I cite will just be dismissed by most people here as "westoid propaganda" and it's not like Russia is going to come clean about their losses either.

The only thing we can conclusively say is that there are tens of thousands of casualties, thousands of pieces of equipment loss, and a devastated economy for both countries.
so you're basically saying that there's no credible casualty number from both sides, but you're still able to conclude that the loss ratio is 1:1. Your deductive skill is out of this world man :))
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Whatever source I cite will just be dismissed by most people here as "westoid propaganda"

Well, is not like the west doesn't have an interest on boosting lies in Ukraine. That's the point of propaganda, isn't it?. Or are we going to pretend that things like the Ghost of Kiev didn't happen?.

Of the 5000 vehicle loss cited on Oryx, only a few hundred are marked as abandoned. We've not seen any evidence of Russian vehicle recovery teams recovering any of their abandoned vehicles, and most of the abandoned vehicles took place in the west during their failed thunder run on Kiev so it's not like those are getting recovered anytime soon.

We have seen plenty of evidence of Oryx counting the same vehicles as multiple losses justifying it with pictures from different angles to claim they are different, or in the case of jets using random unidentifiable pieces that could have come from the same wreck and trying pass it as different wrecks.

All of this, while taking forever to update confirmed ukranian losses.
 

emblem21

Major
Registered Member

An interesting aligation in regards to Taiwan has come forth in regards to the provision of Drones that caused the damages seen in Crimea. One must wonder what’s going to happen in retaliation as a result
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Found it in net. Not sure if it's true. 76k+killed & 42k+ wounded in Ukr army

This would be the first instance of modern conflict with the dead outnumbering the wounded almost 2:1 when in every other instance it's 1:2 or 1:3, even going as far as WW1.

I analyzed the image in a raster editing software and the "7" in the 76 640 doesn't match the other two in the main text or the other sevens in the document (header, footer etc). Fonts are described by numerical values. You can't have two sevens with a thick top horizontal line, and one seven without it if you are using a computer-generated font. It looks edited in but when I copied the sevens below it looked much more believable. It's as if someone wanted to do a bad job on purpose. Very strange. Perhaps it's deliberate to discover a leak?

16k to 42k would be what I would expect and it is still very high casualty rate for six months of fighting when you consider what actually happens on modern battlefield and how casualties are responded to. Russian armed forces losses would be half of it and LPR, DPR and contractors bring it to parity.

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This is my attempt to map all the aircraft losses - jets and helicopters - from 24 February to 22 August. I used Wikipedia and Lostarmour and cross-referenced both. Icons are described with dd/mm and color for aircraft type. Bottom left is reported losses without location. The placement of icons indicates approximate location. Dashed grey line indicates fighter losses in the Kiyv region and helo losses during the Hostomel assault. Aircraft icons with "explosion" indicate aircraft destroyed in ground strikes.

All images are in thumbnails because of size.

This is the location of Ukrainian tactical aviation and air defense regiments under the Air Force and helicopter brigades under Army Aviation and aviation units of the Russian Aerospace Forces.

Aircraft losses map 1.jpg

All jet losses 24 Feb-22 Aug
1200px_Aircraft losses map 2.jpg

All helo losses 24 Feb-22 Aug
1200px_Aircraft losses map 3.jpg

Combined jet and helo losses divided into four main phases:

Phase 1: 24 Feb - 28 Feb (initial assault, attempt to establish air supremacy and capture Hostomel)
Phase 2: 1 Mar - 31 Mar (continuing ground assault at Kiyv)
1200px_Aircraft losses map - phase1.jpg

Phase 3: 1 Apr - 31 May (Donbas offensive during the "second phase" of the invasion)
Phase 4: 1 June - 22 Aug (GMLRS strikes begin 25 June)
1200px_Aircraft losses map - phase2.jpg

There is a clear drop-off of Russian aviation activity beginning with the end of April. It is caused mainly by mechanical factors. Two months of continued operations is a very long period of activity and RuAF is not the best in terms of sustainment. That forces an operational pause throughout most of May, June and July with much reduced sortie rates. The recent information was that RuAF flew ~200 sorties per day while UAF flew ~30. Russian number includes all sorties - transport, CAP, bomber etc. Ukrainian number includes combat missions for jets and helos.

The losses are distributed in the above four phases as follows:

UKRAINE

  • 24-28/2 - 20 jets,
  • 1-31/3 - 14 jets, 14 helos
  • 1/4-31/5 - 4 jets, 1 helo
  • 1/6-22/8 - 4 jets,
RUSSIA
  • 24-28/2 - 2 jets, 6 helos
  • 1-31/3 - 15 jets, 11 helos
  • 1/4-31/5 - 5 jets, 5 helos
  • 1/6-22/8 - 16 jets (including 9 from Saky), 4 helos
The opening assault 24-28/2 follows Desert Storm dynamic but the subsequent month demonstrates:
  1. Russia couldn't establish control of the skies because of lack of SEAD capability
  2. Kiyv operation caused air force to take losses while supporting the failed ground assault.

Currently the losses for UAF are estimated at:
  • Su-24M: 12 of initial 12-15.
  • Su-25: 10 of 30. Additional 4 delivered as aircraft and 14 as parts.
  • MiG-29: 14-20 (varies) of 51 (43A + 8UB). Additional 28-40 delivered as parts.
  • Su-27: 4 of 32 (26 S/P + 6 UB)
  • Mi-24: 1 of (nominal) 48. Additional 15-24 delivered as parts.
  • Mi-8: 14 of (nominal) 50+. Additional 24 delivered from US and more as parts.
Wear should be considered as well. At minimum 1 aircraft lost to wear per 1 aircraft lost in combat. It won't show up in the stats but won't take part in combat. Applies to Russia more than Ukraine due to higher number of airframes. Ukrainian aircraft are few but have disproportionate resources directed toward maintaining their operational status.

This means that a maximum of 12 Su-25, 12-16 MiG-29, 12 Su-27, and 1-2 Su-24M should be mission-capable at any time. The biggest problem is shortage of pilots.

Main obstacle is lack of ARH missiles. MiG-29 carries 2 R-27 and 4 R-73. Su-27 carries up to 6 R-27 and 4 R-73. R-27s are SARH but Su-27s have better range and more missiles which allows them to fire (and lose) multiple shots at target. MiGs with 2 R-27 are useful against Su-25s and helos and serve as bait and gap-filler in other situations.
 

XiDada

Banned Idiot
Registered Member
were you ever post here before ? you seem to have bad experience here.
I've seen enough people here just outright call any source that doesn't favor China/Russia as propaganda.

The fact is: this war is at an attritional stage where neither side can honestly say they're winning or losing. To say Russia is winning is like saying Germany was winning WW1 because they held onto a chunk of French territory for much of the war.

The thing about attritional war is that the moment they can no longer supply a consistent stream of men and materiel on the frontlines, then collapse will come seemingly out of nowhere.

And the strategic balance on the ground is that the US and its allies have an economy that vastly dwarfs Russia's, and a good chunk of Eastern European NATO members (e.g. Poland) is using this war as an opportunity to offload their Warsaw Pact inventory. In a way, Russia is fighting the army that it had built over the decades, and the US is more than happy to keep supplying everything Ukraine needs to tie Russia down.
 
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