The War in the Ukraine

Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
These numbers provided to open data I already had this information. What is interesting is the statement that according to him, some sources indicate that the Russians produce or were producing 7 million shells per year.

What is the basis to support this?
No idea, I could not find nothing to confirm it. Maybe the source he read added the russian production in a year (4.5) with the alleged NK shells provided to Russia (that are supposedly 3 million) to get that 7 million

Furthermore, do we know what the shell production rates are for all of Europe (NATO)?
I only know that the EU plan is to manufacture 2 million per year in 2026. I have no idea if they are achieving the schedule or not.

Also Rheinmetall plan to produce alone but itself 1.1 milliom as per 2027.
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Problem of this programs is that they plan to match the current Russian production in 2 or 3 years, but I would expect also Russians to continue increasing the ammo production, so the gap will persist.
Although more ammo means more deaths in both sides, so maybe the plan is simply that the cost in lives become prohibited at some point for Russia.
But still, is 3 years in the future... Ukraine will have to hold the East until then or the ammo will arrive only to defend the western side and have no effect since anyway I doubt that Russians have a big interest in it
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A good summary, thank you!
 

SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
I feel like there are some very big misconceptions regarding Western industrial output vs. Russia. Clearly Western industrial output is far greater than that of Russia, but most of it is not directed towards military endeavours which is giving Russia an advantage in some areas of production.

Outside of those advantages related to very specific military items or things Russia otherwise specializes in there isn't much of a comparison between say NATO industrial output and Russia. It's just not even close.
 

iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Nuclear attack is more likely now than it was two years ago. How is this not disturbing?

Do you have any sources to support this argument?
I believe I saw this on The New Atlas channel on Youtube, but I can't go through all the 40 minute+ videos to find which video it was, and I can't confirm whether this number was in addition to the North Korean and Iranian production or just Russian alone. Let us stick to the 3-4.5 million number.

Edit:

This article estimates the North Korean delivery to be around 3 million 152mm shell, increasing the total to around 6 to 7.5 million shells, so that may have been what I read.

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Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
I feel like there are some very big misconceptions regarding Western industrial output vs. Russia. Clearly Western industrial output is far greater than that of Russia, but most of it is not directed towards military endeavours which is giving Russia an advantage in some areas of production.
That far greater is not so clear.

In general in all countries 30% of the electrical consumption is used for industrial endeavors. Richer countries use a little more of electricity in the house consumption (for example air conditioning) but this can be used as a average.

The biggest electrical consumers in the world are China, US, India, Russia.
China - 8539.69 terawatt-hours (TWh) in 2022
United States - 4128.18 TWh in 2022
India - 1462.87 TWh in 2022
Russia - 1025.54 TWh in 2022

The European countries are far behind, with Germany or France consuming less than half of Russian electricity.

As US consumes 4 times the electricity of Russia its industry should be 4 times the size of Russian industry. Add European countries and you should get around 5 times the industry of Russia.

This is logical since they have several times more population, although you can notice that Russia is more industrialized per capita.

The problem is that general industry does not directly correlate with the type of industry required for military endeavors:

The trend since 1991 was to export heavy industries to third word countries or to China. The reasons is that this industries are very energy intensive, they are polluting, and in general they are not nice.
If you are European as me I am sure you have many times during the last decades about metallurgic industries closing due to high cost or environmental reasons.
(BTW this is the reason of why the CO2 tax is promoted by the EU, is a neocolonial scheme to export dirty industries to other countries and then tax them making them work for "free")

Building shells or tanks is heavy industry, and this is exactly the industry the West have lost in last 30 years.

Also, civilian industry is not military industry. Although there could be some correlation they are not the same. They were maybe similar and easy to convert in 1940 but not anymore, nowadays the specialization is very big in most of the areas.
Soviet industry was always super focused in military, so we can assume that Russian industry follow the same pattern and therefore has a bigger percentage of its industry dedicated to the military than the West.

To deduce which is the real difference of Russia and the West in industrial output is kinda subjective, but is far smaller than the difference in population and the difference in GDP. And I am almost sure that if you remove the US Russia smashes the EU production.

Here is where the problem comes. The first country in the list, China, that is the main menace to the US and the biggest industrial power in the world, being twice the US.
US cannot commit all its force to European theater, and some would argue US cannot commit none of its force to the European theater, if he want to have the minimum chance in the war against China.
Even other NATO countries like France or UK cannot commit all its force against Russia because they have empires to maintain and presence spread around Africa, they need to commit resources there.


As a summary thinking that Russia has and will have superiority (and even supremacy) in military production in the Ukraine war is not a misconception
 

SolarWarden

Junior Member
Registered Member
I dont get it. You post one or two links for every eight to twelve Tam posts but you are claiming victory and success...
What's not to get? And where did I claim "victory and success?" Some folks believe what Tam does is spam posting so called "Russian battlefield success" multiple times a day for over a year sometimes taking up a whole page yet Russian forces haven't taken any strategic locations only frontline towns which took them months and months at cost of over a division of armored vehicles and soldiers. Where's is your complaint on that?

I don't flood this place posting every Russian vehicle that Ukraine has taken out people in, here likely including you, would complain that I'm spamming with useless info. Ukraine taking out Russian s300/400 battery is a big deal. Ukraine taking out a huge convoy of military supply trucks is a huge deal. Ukraine receiving (future) AWACS is a bid deal. Are you starting to recognize my pattern?
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
Personally I think the situation for Ukraine is reaching a breaking point, sadly like i said before, the Ukrainian high command wasted a lot of manpower and resources in a failed offensive. The help that they will receive is probably too little and too late.
In term of production the Russians can out produce the West because the weapons that they are using for this war are much simpler than Western weapons, easier to make, i am not an expert but i can bet money than Western shells require more parts and more complex components than Russian Shells, the same for missiles, drones, tanks, rockets and so, the West produce more high tech weaponry that are more complex to produce and more difficult to maintain. Is a pretty difficult situation for the Ukrainians. So they only way out is.

-The West forget about their high tech miracle weapons obsession and start producing cheaper lower tech weapons suitable for a long term grinding war. (not going to happen)
-Force China to cut trade with Russia (not going to happen given that China is the main target of the West)
-The West intervene themselves in the war to avoid an Ukraine collapse.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
Seems the majority of the Czech sourced artillery rounds are in bad shape, a lot of them either requiring some form of refurbishing, remanufacturing or outright disposal with sources and providers rising prices each time to the point of overcharging

Wasn't there a story published here that claims the Russians are trying to buy these same munitions?

The law of demand and supply.

Here:
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I feel like there are some very big misconceptions regarding Western industrial output vs. Russia. Clearly Western industrial output is far greater than that of Russia, but most of it is not directed towards military endeavours which is giving Russia an advantage in some areas of production.

Outside of those advantages related to very specific military items or things Russia otherwise specializes in there isn't much of a comparison between say NATO industrial output and Russia. It's just not even close.

What Western military industrial production? At least the part that's not outsourced to China or require some Chinese component or refined metal?

What's not to get? And where did I claim "victory and success?" Some folks believe what Tam does is spam posting so called "Russian battlefield success" multiple times a day for over a year sometimes taking up a whole page yet Russian forces haven't taken any strategic locations only frontline towns which took them months and months at cost of over a division of armored vehicles and soldiers. Where's is your complaint on that?

I don't flood this place posting every Russian vehicle that Ukraine has taken out people in, here likely including you, would complain that I'm spamming with useless info. Ukraine taking out Russian s300/400 battery is a big deal. Ukraine taking out a huge convoy of military supply trucks is a huge deal. Ukraine receiving (future) AWACS is a bid deal. Are you starting to recognize my pattern?

Lol. Every strategic success is built on a repetition of tactical success done in the right time, and quantity. Destroying a single or two S-300/400 systems means zilch, when Russia still has tons of them. Did that contribute to the capture of a settlement?

In contrast, the hundreds if not thousands of artillery systems, tanks, vehicles, the core of Ukrainian battlefield power are taken out by Lancets, mines, Krasnopols and drones, leaves you with the most failed counteroffensive of modern times and crumbling frontlines.

Here's the thing.

Each kill makes the capture or the defense of the frontline a little bit easier or harder. Until it reaches to a point you win or you lose.

Every settlement captured is a point in a constellation that leads to others. Marinka to Krasnogorovka and Novomikhailovka for example.

Fortunately at least Ukrainian leadership is a lot smarter than you hence they are fighting tooth and nail on many locations, sacrificing thousands with no retreat policy,

Pretty big if you ask me. Russian flag raised in Paraskoviivka.

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Because now the village of Konstantinovka is next, and closer and closer to the main arteries of Ukrainian logistics in the entire Donetsk.

The headquarters of the 95th Airborne Brigade of the AFU got Iskandered. At least 50 officers may have been lost. Trained, experienced leadership. In both human life and weight of experience, weighs far more than an S-400 battery or a Soviet era landing ship.

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P-18 radar got Lanceted. Simple cheap drone just blew a major hole in your AD spotting coverage. You can't fire what you can't find. A gap that will be exploited by FABs and Gerans.

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Ukrainian BMP-2 gets destroyed by two FPV drones. The fact you're still using Soviet equipment tells you so much Western equipment are not working as they should. This is done by the 14th SPN. Since 2022 we have witnessed the perfection of the small hunter killer group.

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M113 destroyed by UAVs.

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T-64BV on the full run taken out by Lancet.

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Another bridge in the Kupyansk area taken out by a Krasnopol or X-38ML. This is damaging the Ukrainian logistical network.

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House hit by 152mm shell. This was observed with Ukrainian troops movement.

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Another heavily grilled T-72B3. There are drone jammers beneath the grill.

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Courier ground robots being made. They will be sent to the front to support assaults.

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curiousguy

New Member
Registered Member
What's not to get? And where did I claim "victory and success?" Some folks believe what Tam does is spam posting so called "Russian battlefield success" multiple times a day for over a year sometimes taking up a whole page yet Russian forces haven't taken any strategic locations only frontline towns which took them months and months at cost of over a division of armored vehicles and soldiers. Where's is your complaint on that?

I don't flood this place posting every Russian vehicle that Ukraine has taken out people in, here likely including you, would complain that I'm spamming with useless info. Ukraine taking out Russian s300/400 battery is a big deal. Ukraine taking out a huge convoy of military supply trucks is a huge deal. Ukraine receiving (future) AWACS is a bid deal. Are you starting to recognize my pattern?
cant stress enough the insignificance of Adiivka, Bakhmut, Mariupol, etc, can you?
 
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