The War in the Ukraine

Santamaria

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do you think Russians will follow the road upward and toward Kostiantynivka?
It is one option.
Other could be to attack Lyman and later Severs. Threatening Kramatorsk also from the North.
Also continue advancing from Marinka in the south, although there is a river there that maybe is more difficult. Also that area is full of small cities, and seems to be a nightmare.

To be honest I don’t know, there are so many cities to take that I can’t imagine what is the plan. If there is no a clear plan to break and they need to take cities one by one the war would take years and years.

But still the Russians don’t bomb bridges across the Dnieper when they could. So they have to have a reason for doing that and let Ukrainian reinforcements to come to the front line
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
It is one option.
Other could be to attack Lyman and later Severs. Threatening Kramatorsk also from the North.
Also continue advancing from Marinka in the south, although there is a river there that maybe is more difficult. Also that area is full of small cities, and seems to be a nightmare.

To be honest I don’t know, there are so many cities to take that I can’t imagine what is the plan. If there is no a clear plan to break and they need to take cities one by one the war would take years and years.

But still the Russians don’t bomb bridges across the Dnieper when they could. So they have to have a reason for doing that and let Ukrainian reinforcements to come to the front line
How much reserves exist on both sides is the biggest factor. On established fortifications, conscripts without much training can man trenches and be somehow usefull. If reserve of them are plenty, keeping fortress position is not that of a short term problem for the Ukrainian side. But the lacks of troops on the Ukrainian side is starting to show even on the news from the NATO side..

If Russian forces open another front from the north or Kharkiv it will need huge amount of trained soldiers to counter and i'm not sure that fortifications from this sides are as strong than the Donetsk front that have been build for the past 10 years. To open another front and put good pressure, Russian forces will need a load of equipments and trained troops too.

So who will have the deepest pockets ?
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Vice Admiral Viktor Sokolov got kicked from his position of commander of the Black sea fleet. No kidding, Russian navy is such a continuous wreck show in Ukraine that some change need to be done, and maybe more than just switch the commander.

Sokolov is being scapegoated for failures which are not his fault. He had no proper ships, no funds to maintain those that he had, and no independence to plan fleet operations for the ships and funds at his disposal. Most likely he was directly ordered to ferry something with the ship that was just sunk by drones.

Kremlin always blames others for their mistakes. It is fundamental to the authoritarian nature of the Russian state and its persistent culture of instututional incompetency: the tsar is blameless, the boyars are guilty. The wider culture of externalising blame and denial of responsibility is so endemic to Russian mentality because this is what the political hierarchy imposes on society through its actions.

This is the general reason for all the problems but the specifics are more complicated.

Russian navy is whatever remains in operation from the Soviet navy and a handful of new designs that are still constrained by Soviet doctrinal framework only with some improvements introduced to close most obvious capability gaps. Russian navy is therefore a 35 y.o. formation both in tactical and often technical sense. But since in 1991 the Soviet Navy lagged by approx. a decade behind USN in innovation it is a 45 y.o. navy.

Modern designs like 22350 or 20380 entering service in limited amounts are the focus of propaganda but the core of fleet are still ships designed in the 1970s which is important because these ships were built for:
  • strategic layout that no longer exists
  • fleet and aviation support that no longer exists
  • tactics that no longer are applicable
I overlaid shorelines from 1984 onto 2014, coloured for WarPact, NATO and neutral, to demonstrate how radically the situation changed for a Soviet fleet which was very much like PLAN in the past - differently structured, dependent on shore-based aviation and primarily tasked with protecting the "maritime flank".

Cold War map 84-14.jpg

During the Cold War BSF was tasked not with power projection in the Black Sea but with power projection in the Mediterranean Sea. And since Med was dominated by NATO navies it was a disruptive force meant to absorb enemy assets. It was also primarily tasked with ASW not land attack or air defense because at the time AShMs were not very effective. USN area defenses were developed to protect CBGs against Soviet missile attacks conducted primarily by Naval Aviation and then by submarines. For Black Sea the fleet had multiple light ASW frigates and for the Med it had large ASW ships (cruisers and destroyers in NATO classification). The strategic profile of BSF was to hunt submarines and absorb stronger enemy navy and the ships reflected that. Many of those ships are still in service and the entire fleet composition remains defined by that old doctrine even if modern warships are designed differently.

Fundamentally the largest (and unsinkable) warship for Russia is Crimea. It allows Russia to apply its advantages as land power - GBAD and land-based aviation. This is a short overview of its potential:


All the other BSF ships complement Crimea. Because of that there is no need for fleet with equivalent capabilities. BSF is not designed to fight in disadvantageous conditions so it can't do it reliably even in its own waters. People who point to technological advances like Starlink miss the point. Starlink doesn't make it possible for Ukraine to attack Russian navy. It only makes it cheap and convenient.

Black Sea Fleet 220224-231226.jpg

The only reason why there is some Black Sea Fleet left is because Ukraine was even weaker. Any competent adversary would have sunk the fleet long ago. But it also wouldn't be much of a priority because the BSF is not a determining factor in the war or even in the battle for the Black Sea.

Since the war started the Turkish straits have been closed to all warships. These are the BSF vessels currently (as of 10 Feb 24) locked out of their nominal AoO. Merkuriy is the newly (2023) commissioned 20381 corvette.

Ru Navy MED 20240210.png

Russia is therefore left with two Grigorovich (11356) FFGs as the only capable, general purpose warships at the inception of hostilities. Moskva served only as a command ship because due to lack of funds for modernisation and proper maintenance it was not at full capability to provide the area defense with S-300F and defend itself at the same time.

On Moskva:

All the other ships are ASW with Osa-M or auxiliary or missile boats which struggle to stay at sea during higher sea states and can only serve as mobile missile launchers. The threat of being hit by a Grad/Uragan salvo is also very real so the ships can't do much to support the fighting on land. Their firepower is also not sufficient to provide any meaningful support. An outdated gun cruiser with 8x 155mm like BAP Almirante Grau would be genuinely useful let alone 9x 406mm of USS Iowa.

All of this fundamentally also points to the core issue with Russia's culture of incompetence and grandiose delusion. Just like I always point to lack of prepared defenses in the south, especially a defensive line on the western bank of Dnipro and a fortification system in Vasilivka-Tokmak-Melitopol region as main argument for Ukraine's incompetence and responsibility for how the war went, I point to Russia's lack of aerial-amphibious operations in Dniester estuary and Budjak as sufficient proof of the same.

From early 2022:

Russia was simply incapable of both amassing its amphibious fleet and innovating to use low-cost solutions to build the necessary expeditionary basing potential. The fact that Syrian intervention would provide sufficient rationale for that is further proof for Russia incompetence.

This is Shahid Mahdavi, the second (after Shahid Roudaki) and larger of IRGC expeditionary base ships:
Shahid Mahdavi.jpg

This is Russia's amphibious fleet:
shipdisplacementcargoBlack SeaCaspianBalticNorthernPacifictotal w/o PF
11711 Gren6000t1500t22
1171 Tapir4950t1000t212
775 Ropucha4000t500t444312
21820 Dyugon280t140t1314
11770 Serna100t50t24318
1176 Akula120t50t113439
12322 Pomornik550t150t22

W/o PF the combined capacity is ~12 700t of cargo. That's 250 tanks.

Add improvised landing decks for helo ship-hopping and 2-3 adapted "expeditionary base" vessels and the entire southern coast would have been under control within 1-2 weeks with a well planned operation and the battle for the Black Sea would be over and with direct link to Transnistria Ukrainian rear and LoC would be threateed.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Avdevka is important to stop bombing of Donetsk city and because it was a fortress city, but I don’t know how much effect will have overall
Psychologically it is important because the people of Donetsk have been asking for it to be taken since the conflict started to stop the bombings of downtown Donetsk. It is also basically the most fortified position Ukraine had before the war started. So taking it should have some psychological impact on Ukraine as well.

The city itself is pretty consequential strategically. It is part of the railway network. Because of the crappy dirt roads in Ukraine you need to do most of the logistics by rail.

To be honest I don’t know, there are so many cities to take that I can’t imagine what is the plan. If there is no a clear plan to break and they need to take cities one by one the war would take years and years.
Ukraine is in a vice and the Russians are just applying pressure until they crack basically.

But still the Russians don’t bomb bridges across the Dnieper when they could. So they have to have a reason for doing that and let Ukrainian reinforcements to come to the front line
Because they would rather fight the Ukrainian army outside their major cities? Bleeding white their actual combat power will make the rest of the operation much easier.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
It is one option.
Other could be to attack Lyman and later Severs. Threatening Kramatorsk also from the North.
Also continue advancing from Marinka in the south, although there is a river there that maybe is more difficult. Also that area is full of small cities, and seems to be a nightmare.

To be honest I don’t know, there are so many cities to take that I can’t imagine what is the plan. If there is no a clear plan to break and they need to take cities one by one the war would take years and years.

But still the Russians don’t bomb bridges across the Dnieper when they could. So they have to have a reason for doing that and let Ukrainian reinforcements to come to the front line

Getting Ukraine to feed men and materials to pre-prepared Russian fire bags is precisely the plan and point.

There are so many population centres and fortress cities in the way that the Russians would exhaust themselves before they can punch through them all. This is why they have settled for plan B, which is to take advantage of Ukrainian need to appease stupid western politicians by pumping men and materials into the teeth of Russian guns.

The priority for the Russians is to maintain pressure to keep Ukrainian losses far above replacement levels and bleed them and the west dry of men and war materials while keeping their own losses to a minimal. The only thing giving the Russians any time pressure is the continuing Ukrainian terror shellings of Russian and Russian held population centres. That’s where the Russians are taking heavy losses on the offence, since they are working against the clock and cannot afford to take their time and slow grind the Ukrainians to their liking before committing major forces for big assaults.

The thing that the Russians have realised is that they do not have to take every Ukrainian city the hard way if they instead destroy the Ukrainians out in open fields where Russian firepower holds overwhelming superiority.

Once the Russians have taken Avdevka, there won’t really be all that much need for them to need to rush things. So Russian losses will plummet while Ukrainian casualties will stay largely the same.

So long as the Ukrainians continue to pump men and materials out into open fields to stand against the Russians, there won’t be much need for the Russians to feel any need to punch through with any speed. Since doing so will just see them have to do the same thing a few hedgerows down the road.

They will instead just apply relentless pressure while bleeding the AFU. They will press home any advantage to advance, but the main aim of doing so would be to maintain unbearable pressure on the AFU rather than because those trenches hold any special significance.

The smartest thing the Ukrainians can do is pull back west of the Dnieper and use the river as a natural barrier to hold the Russians back. With the river as the main barrier, they can afford to maintain a minimal presence along the river while keeping the bulk of their forces further back in reserve to limit the effectiveness of Russia’s war of attrition, but close enough to rush forwards to resist and punish any Russian attempts to cross the river.

That is the only long term viable play for Ukraine to force a North-South Korean style ceasefire through frustration. But that is politically unacceptable to the Americans in an election year, so the Ukrainians will bleed themselves to oblivion and the Russians can just walk into all remaining Ukrainian cities after Ukrainian resisting collapses.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Ukraine is bombing Belgorod residential areas with MLRS just like they used to do with Donetsk. This means Kharkiv will have to be taken sooner or later. Russia will just expand its security buffer. But of course the US has to continue to deliver even more long range weapons in an attempt to force Russia to take the whole of Ukraine. Their game plan was always to force Russia to fight a counter insurgency campaign like the US did to the Soviet Union after WW2.

I still think Russia will continue taking its own sweet time at this.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Baba Yaga and Starlink captured from surrendered Ukrainians.

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Winged FABs hit AFU warehouses, headquarters and parking lots of equipment in Varvarovka, Kharkhiv region.

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Ukrainian TikTok video showing off a 2S1 Gvozdika but ends with it's destruction.

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Ukrainian Bogdan 155mm self propelled howitzer survives a hit by a Lancet on its armored cabin.

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Ukrainian recon drone PD-1 shot down over Donetsk.

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Burning French VAB APC in the Donetsk region.

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Another M777 taken out by Lancet in Kherson.

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AFU IFV destroyed and burning in the Zaporozhye region.

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Su-24M with FAB-500M62 with UMPK.

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Bombing in Avdiivka.

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Ukrainian UAV Furia planted on the ground using EW.

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Russians have captured the spot where Zelensky took his selfie in Zaporozhye and swore it will never be taken.

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Outnumbered 1 to 7 in Avdiivka according to 3rd Azov Brigade media officer. Situation is critical and they are being shot at from nearly all directions.

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Russians capturing fortifications in Avdiivka including the filtration station in the east and the air defense base in the south.

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1st Slavaynsk Brigade raises Russian flag over the Zenith fortification which is one of the strongest of the AFU in Avdiivka.

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AFU has started 'redeployment to more advantageous positions'. That's saying their front in Avdiivka is collapsing.

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Getting Ukraine to feed men and materials to pre-prepared Russian fire bags is precisely the plan and point.

There are so many population centres and fortress cities in the way that the Russians would exhaust themselves before they can punch through them all. This is why they have settled for plan B, which is to take advantage of Ukrainian need to appease stupid western politicians by pumping men and materials into the teeth of Russian guns.

The priority for the Russians is to maintain pressure to keep Ukrainian losses far above replacement levels and bleed them and the west dry of men and war materials while keeping their own losses to a minimal. The only thing giving the Russians any time pressure is the continuing Ukrainian terror shellings of Russian and Russian held population centres. That’s where the Russians are taking heavy losses on the offence, since they are working against the clock and cannot afford to take their time and slow grind the Ukrainians to their liking before committing major forces for big assaults.

The thing that the Russians have realised is that they do not have to take every Ukrainian city the hard way if they instead destroy the Ukrainians out in open fields where Russian firepower holds overwhelming superiority.

Russian superiority in air, drone, missiles and artillery fire power has not stopped Ukrainians from using their drones and increasingly starved artilly from continuing to inflict losses on the Russians. Instead the Russians have learned with increasing confidence, they can fight and take out the Ukrainians in both forest and urban battles, things that the Ukrainians thought they were strong at. We are seeing these in recent battles from Avdiivka to Xinkovka. Once again battlefield tactics are changing in unexpected ways.
 

blackjack21

Junior Member
Registered Member
-Defend meaningless and or worthless town for far longer than you should have
-Absolutely refuse to cede even an inch of ground of this village or nameless pile of dirt in the ass end of Eastern Ukraine because it would look bad on the newspaper
-Eventually get outflanked by the advancing enemy
-Get any roads you would use to retreat either straight up controlled by the enemy or at the very least under their fire control
-Finally start retreating a month after everybody figured out it's a lost cause
-Take massive casualties at very little cost to the enemy
-Claim you actually killed a gorillion separatists/vatniks and therefore you won anyways
-Rinse and repeat for 8 years
 

tank3487

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russian superiority in air, drone, missiles and artillery fire power has not stopped Ukrainians from using their drones and increasingly starved artilly from continuing to inflict losses on the Russians. Instead the Russians have learned with increasing confidence, they can fight and take out the Ukrainians in both forest and urban battles, things that the Ukrainians thought they were strong at. We are seeing these in recent battles from Avdiivka to Xinkovka. Once again battlefield tactics are changing in unexpected ways.
Main reason for this are manpower. In first year of war with Ukraine fully mobilized and Russia not even using conscripts there was 3-5/1 ratio in favor of Ukraine in manpower. Now after 300k mobilized and steady recruitment, while Ukraine had burned down its manpower in Bakhmut/Counter offensive and opertations like Krynki(and now this whole Avdeevka mess which should have been abandoned months ago). Russia start to get advantage in manpower on the frontline.

And here is main issue for Ukrainian leadership. Just to hold current frontline they need to mobilize 500-1000k this year. And they just cannot, mobilization are already brutal in Ukraine with peoples being snatched from the streets, with those that got snatched are beaten until they agree to submit. It is already too close to the limit.

Add to this lack of ammo, cause Ukraine and EU already depleted its massive arsenals already and current production capacities are just not enough for such war. Plus Israel burn huge chunk of ammo taking resources away from Ukraine.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
FPV drones with thermobaric charges demolish homes used by Ukrainian troops as shelters. From the 1st Brigade of the Donetsk Army.

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Training center of Cossack brigade Siberia with an unmanned track platform 'Eliz' mounting a machine gun.

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Winged FABs arriving at Ukrainian positions in Avdiivka.

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International Brigade Pyatnashka installs brigade flag over the Avdiivka filtration station.

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1st Slavaynsk Brigade installs Russian flag over stronghold 'Cheburashka'.

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Banner of the 114th Brigade on the western junction to Avdiivka. The same spot Zelensky took his selfie and swore Avdiivka will not fall.

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Ukrainian troops retreating through the same area with their lives. Vehicle might be a YPR-765.

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More FABs arriving in Kherson at Ukrainian targets.

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Damaged Ukrainian tanks but still running, retreating in Avdiivka. They appear to have been hit with FPV drones.

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TOS hitting Ukrainian positions in the Bakhmut region, courtesy of the 98th VDV.

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Not a FAB. This time the Su-34 dropped an ODAB-500 with UMPK on a Ukrainian target in Chasiv Yar. Unlike a FAB, the ODAB is a thermobaric bomb. Observed by a drone from the 98th VDV.

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AFU vehicle hit by ATGM from the VDV.

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Captured flag of the AFU 36th Marine Brigade in Krynki by the VDV.

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Chasiv Yar, hit by winged FABs.

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AFU vehicle on the move, gets a direct hit, possibly by Krasnopol.

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