Well yes, I actually would have considered that to be the case. The Soviets supplied them, but the North Vietnamese did the fighting. Also, I think we can agree that Soviet support for Vietnam far outstrips NATO support for Ukraine.
The War in the Ukraine
- Thread starter SampanViking
- Start date
These numbers don’t make any sense to me. 7,200 anti-air missiles per year? Where are they all? What platforms are they launching them from? Even just a couple of years of production would give them a lifetime supply against what they are currently facing.
Same goes for most of these statistics. 200 per month of new Tanks and IFVs? No, sorry that is not the case. Maybe some old stuff dragged out of Soviet retirement, but not new builds.
Also, please stop with the West is deindustrialized nonsense. The US is the largest producer of oil and gas in the world. Boeing produces 1,000+ aircraft per year and Airbus probably adds another 1,500+ to that number. Turbofan production at CFM, GE and Pratt is in the thousands. Lockheed delivers around ~156 F-35 at full-rate production. Not to mention the continued production of F-15, F-16, F-18 and every other aircraft currently produced in the West. The US manufacturers 10 million plus automobiles per year and NATO wide is probably near 20 million. The US has companies like Cat which is the largest producers of construction equipment in the world. Hell, I haven’t even had to look at stats for Germany, but they would have some major industrial producers. I feel like I could go on, but cumulatively, NATO absolutely demolishes Russia in industrial/manufacturing output. Period.
What about Western weapons supplies to Ukraine? Where the US got tanks from Morocco. They got Pakistani, South Korean, and Israeli artillery ammunition, etc. You want to compare weapons supplies from NATO plus whoever else they buy weapons from, with just the Russian weapons supplies that Russia can produce themselves? How do you think that makes sense?
NATO isn't just giving Ukraine "old material". In some cases systems like SCALP-EG, Storm Shadow, NASAMS, IRIS-T, Patriot were provided which are current equipment. Javelin and Stinger are legacy systems but they have no modern replacement either. Designing replacements and putting them into service could take up to a decade. And as for the old material they do provide, it will have to be replaced with new material at way higher cost than the old material's. Let us say you give Ukraine US M1s which were made back when the US had two fully operational tank factories. Do you think you can replace those M1s with the single currently available tank "factory" which only does upgrades? No to mention they haven't built a new engine for the M1 in decades. And it takes typically up to a decade to design a new gas turbine engine and put it into production.
Also, unlike NATO's expectations with their "sanctions from hell", Russia has been producing more combat aircraft than they did before they invaded Ukraine. And total numbers of aircraft in service for several aircraft types actually increased since pre-war. This includes the Su-35, Su-57, and MiG-31BM.
I told you, over 1500 tanks, between new, upgraded, reconditioned, whatever. This was their official statement.
There are reports of increased sightings and destruction of T-90M tanks in Ukraine. This means their production was increased.
There is talk they might build new facilities to make the Armata. And I expect production of new and upgraded T-90M tanks at Nizhny Tagil to be reasonably high. They also put the Omsk tank plant working on building whole new T-80 tanks from scratch.
Except it is more than well known that Russia is outproducing the West in artillery shells. Even Western analysts themselves admit this.
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Zelensky visiting Avdiivka is actually pretty crazy.
I am not surprised of your oversized ego, but I am sure both EU and USA would be very disappointed to your ungratefulness.
Here is EU's report on its contribution to Ukraine's war effort by the end of 2023. In total 91 billion USD so far. That is more than half of Ukraine's GDP in 2022 (160 billion USD). We can be certain that Ukraine's 2023 GDP is even lower than that.
US contributed 41 billion USD since 2022. Just US and EU together are sending 132 billion USD or 82.5% of Ukrainian 2022 GDP. Together with countries like South Korean, Japan etc., Ukraine is essentially like mercenary soldiers fighting NATO's war. Whoever dies in the trench is never the definition of a war.
Small countries like Vietnam and Ukraine tend to have the oversized ego to take credit from their sponsors, fooling themselves as if they are the one playing the chess instead of a chess piece being played. It is good to keep the moral high, but is a guarantee to disaster which Ukraine is already in.
Zelensky did the same thing in Bakhmut. How well did that turn out for Ukraine? He's like the kiss of death really.
Do you even know how many launchers the Russians have? Quite a lot. Just a single Tor launcher can have 8 or 16 SAMs. The Russians have many dozens of just these. Between the Tor, Pantsir, Buk M3, S-300, S-350, S-400, and other legacy systems, no, it is not surprising.
Plus, it is not like you use a single missile to shoot down a target, it typically takes several. If you hit it at all.
The Russians didn't say it was all new tanks. They said it was new, upgraded, and refurbished. Also, you talk like this, but the whole of NATO cannot even produce one new tank currently. They refurbish and upgrade tanks. If you want new tanks you have to go to South Korea or Japan to buy them. South Korea make two dozen new tanks a year tops. And Japan makes like a dozen a year tops.
Yes I am sure the US could produce something. But you don't design a whole new weapon system instantly. It typically takes a decade. And the US has already failed at least twice to replace or augment the M1 Abrams with two separate programs and tens of billions down the toilet. The US also failed at designing a replacement frigate or destroyer by themselves.
The West does have an advantage in terms of the aviation industry. I do not think anyone disputes that. Why do you think the Russians spend so much money on air defenses?
Not everything they make goes straight to the front.
And?? The US and West also deplete a part of their own military reserves when they give them to Ukraine, not everything is made by their MIC right away.
Who cares how many new Russia produces or if they are sending old ones to the front, if the West is too divided to send an equal number of equipment to the front to the Ukrainian side, to keep the balance, it means that they are losing.
It doesn't matter that the West could hypothetically send gazzilion of tanks of whatever else you are coping. Why don't they send it yet?
Because of cross-national differences, and inner-national political differences. And because their MIC overvalues their weapons 5-10 times because mega-corporations control the Western governments unlike in China and Russia when the governments control their MICs and business sectors in general, so they manage to secure tremendously cheaper prices for the same value.
This is just cherrypicking, in total, they are de-industrialized for a country of that size, and 80% of their GDP is services.
Yes, they have more industrial capacity than Serbia for example, but that is not much relevant information, that's just your cope.
Russia produces nearly the same amount of steel as them yearly, 3 times aluminum.
In total, the US just has 2 times bigger casting capacity production than Russia.
But can the US translate all of that into Ukraine or its own MIC? No. That's why Russia is winning this war.
If the US and the West had for example 40% of their economies in industries instead of 20%. Maybe they could've won.
First what percentage of production of those companies, you named, is actually inside the US physically, and then what percentage of that production is dependent on basic and critical raw and various industrial-grade materials and industrial parts coming from outside of the US (From China for example)? That's the problem with your using examples, instead of total preceeding industrial data, trade balances, structures of GDP, etc...
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I understand they have a lot. They have also lost a lot during the Ukraine war and that number of production is very high. I would be very surprised if they could maintain that level of production. I am totally willing to accept being wrong though.
I can totally understand this. I have no problem with believing they upgrade or refurbish older designs.
Are you confusing no tanks currently in production for the lack of the ability to produce them? I am certain that if needed the US could put the Abrams back into production, but they already have over 2,600+ in active duty. Why would they continue to produce new designs? Same goes for other NATO nations.
I don't disagree with US procurement problems, what I was responding to was the comment that the US/West had de-industrialized. Which of course there is an element of truth to, but that doesn't change the fact that in terms of manufacturing/industrial output NATO far exceeds that of Russia.
Are you really comparing Serbia to the United States in terms of industrial production? Like, what? US manufacturing output for 2023 is around 2.5 trillion dollars, what is the GDP of Serbia again?
US has among the highest value added production share of exported goods in the world. Around 78% of the value add for exports came from within the United States.
Like you looking at the share of GDP without understanding the size of the economy you are talking about.
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Whats German Leopard tank production rate right now? Last I checked roughly 2 new tanks a month, 2 dozen a year.
The Germans are producing actual new tanks from scratch? Really? Last I read they were refurbishing older Leopard 2s into Leopard 2A7Vs.
"The Leopard 2A7V was originally ordered in May of 2015, when it was decided that all of the 20 existing Leopard 2A7, 16 Leopard 2A6, and 68 old Leopard 2A4 tanks – which previously had been owned by the German industry and were (re)purchased by the German government – will be upgraded to the new Leopard 2A7V configuration."