The War in the Ukraine

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Land bridge to Crimea implies Ukrainian troops bordering Russian territory is a threat. You can apply this logic to Kharkiv or the entirety of Ukrainian state existence.

Why should Russia tolerate anything less than full conquest of Ukraine if we take your land bridge buffer zone to its full logical conclusion?

My understanding NATO troops on Russian borders was the issue.
Even without NATO troops Ukraine is hostile to Russia due to Crimea. So far no official NATO garrison appeared, but Ukraine did shut water to Crimea. Ukraine did shell Donbass. Yes, Ukraine itself was a threat.

Russia knew Ukraine itself is a threat, but attempted to compromise. No reason for compromise now.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Well, I think a deal similar to the one signed with Finland after the Continuation War might still be possible. Ukraine concedes even more territory, probably all the way to the Dnieper, Ukraine is made a neutral country, their armed forces are disarmed of all heavy weapons, and Russia places a permanent military force right next to Kiev and possibly other Ukrainian cities. But the Russian Duma is discussing going way beyond that.


If Ukraine was to remain as a country there would be Russian troops permanently stationed there and they would have to give up their heavy weapons. The only weapons they would be allowed to maintain would be small arms for policing duties.


So you think NATO didn't interfere in the war in Chechnya. You are quite naive. Chechnya's rebellion was being funded by the Gulf States, it had foreign fighters from Saudi Arabia and other countries fighting in it similar to what happened in Syria.
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These people and weapons supplies were funneled in from NATO airbases in Turkey. I remember reading reports of the Russians tracking transport helicopters flying from Turkey to Chechnya all the time back in the Second Chechen War.

The only difference is that, much like in Syria, they had to maintain plausible deniability, so they used weapons fenced by the CIA instead of just giving them NATO weapons outright.


These Russian bombers are launching cruise missiles. They have done it before several times.
You mentioned Finland. You do realize Finland is in NATO. The Finland solution was an objective failure.

And yes, permanemt troop stationing is normal. That is what you do to every piece of territory, especially one of high value. It would be the same even if no uprising involved.
 

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
Are you forgetting all the budget fights in the US legislature because of Ukrainian war funding?

The US MIC specialises in high value low volume production, whereas the war in Ukraine is chewing through everything in their catalogue at many times the replacement rates.

Not only are western arms getting used up and destroyed at unprecedented rates in Ukraine, it is also massively damaging to the reputations of western equipment makers to have their wares destroyed so easily and on such large scale by ‘inferior’ Russian kit.

Simply put, Ukraine is a fight western MIC isn’t geared up for nor particularly interested in fighting in since their equipment isn’t fighting hopelessly outmatched opponents.

The other major factor to consider is competition. The US MIC has a very good racket going on where they have a politically captive market and they can make stuff at their pace and sells it to the US military at a price they themselves set.

Ukraine is putting massive pressure on the US MIC to deliver stuff at a rate orders of magnitudes higher than what they can achieve. That is creating a massive and growing gulf between demand and supply. Which is a fundamental threat to the established big boys of the US MIC as it is creating a massive opening for new entrants into their walled garden private playgrounds.

If the war drags on for another year or two, how long before necessity forces Washington to award a big contract to a foreign manufacturer to plug the growing hole their domestic suppliers cannot meet?

But much of that might be moot, because the US MIC is already tapped out in terms of many core supplies and the US is making up the shortfall with the US military’s own reserves. How long until the US military starts to run out themselves? You think the Russians will conveniently call a ceasefire to wait for western MIC production to catch up?

What happens when core munitions and equipment starts to run out? Ukrainian casualties increase and they loose ground, as is happening already.

At the core of the issue is not the west’s desire to supply Ukraine, but its actual ability to do so. The US is finding out the hard way that their infinite dollars cheat doesn’t mean much when there are only finite physical assets it can manufacture, and that it cannot ramp up production as it could in its hay day.
Ukraine will have its own "Arsenal of Democracy":
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See recent news from the Ukrainian MIC here:
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Soldier30

Senior Member
Registered Member
A massive missile strike was launched on Ukraine on December 29. The Russian army launched a massive attack on Ukraine today. Cruise missiles Kh-101 and Kh-555 were used from Tu-95MS aircraft, supersonic missiles Kh-22/Kh-32 from Tu-22M3 aircraft. Iskander ballistic missiles, Kinzhal hypersonic missiles and Geranium kamikaze drones were also used. Some of the missiles were shot down, some fell on city blocks, and the video shows the fall of one of the downed missiles. The Ukrainian army announced the interception of almost all Russian missiles. The strikes were carried out on critical infrastructure facilities, the Army Academy in Lvov, warehouses and facilities in Kyiv and Kharkov, and the building of the Artem rocket and space enterprise in Kyiv. There is no exact information yet. Strikes were also carried out in Dnepropetrovsk, Ternopil, Rivne, Khmelnitsk, Vinnitsa and Zhitomir.

 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
You mentioned Finland. You do realize Finland is in NATO. The Finland solution was an objective failure.
It worked for 2/3rds of a century. Not too bad.

Ukraine will have its own "Arsenal of Democracy"
Right. They are going to build German KF51 Panther tanks in a new production facility. A tank which doesn't even exist yet and is pure vaporware. Probably will enter service in Ukraine about the same time Russia will introduce the T-14 Armata with 152mm gun.

It is just stupid to put major production facilities, let alone new ones, within striking range of Russian tactical and strategic aviation and rocket artillery. Russia has already proved quite enough that they can hit targets all over Ukraine's strategic depth.

and where is this "Arsenal of Democracy" back in 2014 or earlier ?

You must be forgotten that Ukraine inherited 50% of Soviet MIC in general in 1991. These enterprises make everything from radio to ICBM's yet Ukraine can't field their newest T-84 en-masse and have to resort to T-64.
Well they were upgrading quite a lot of T-64 tanks with Western supplied thermal sights, radios, and battlefield management systems. They were doing this at two sites one in Kharkiv and another in Lviv. This is the T-64BV mod 2017. These tanks were the bulk of their armored forces. They upgraded hundreds of tanks. They also seem to have upgraded their Tin Shield radars and I wouldn't be surprised if they upgraded their air defenses more than what we have heard thus far. I know that Poland and the Czech Republic had upgrades for Soviet 1970s air defense systems.

When Russia came in, Ukraine had more tanks in service than any country in NATO except the USA and Turkey. Like over a thousand tanks. Their tanks were also better on paper than the ones the Turks had. If you include their tanks in storage, they probably had more tanks than any country in NATO.
 

SolarWarden

Junior Member
Registered Member
Polish TV right now has a piece of news, allegedly at 9 AM today a rocket fell somewhere in eastern Poland. I'm guessing it might have something to do with the missile strikes Russia conducted last night.
It's a nothing burger. There will be a lot of talk in Poland then in a few hours if not now all will be quiet. This will not be the trigger that escalates the war the powers that be are not ready yet but it's coming soon.
 

SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
In what way is military production of Russia, "surpassing that of NATO"? Like number of ships produced, aircraft produced, certain types of munitions, tanks, small arms?

I also see many people indicating that Russia is currently, "fighting NATO" as if fighting Ukraine is the equivalent to fighting the US and its NATO allies. I sincerely hope that people aren't confusing the current conflict between Ukraine and Russia as analogous to a NATO conventional conflict with Russia? In a hypothetical scenario in which the US and NATO decide to commit to evicting Russia from Ukraine how to do you imagine that war going for Russia?
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
In what way is military production of Russia, "surpassing that of NATO"? Like number of ships produced, aircraft produced, certain types of munitions, tanks, small arms?

I also see many people indicating that Russia is currently, "fighting NATO" as if fighting Ukraine is the equivalent to fighting the US and its NATO allies. I sincerely hope that people aren't confusing the current conflict between Ukraine and Russia as analogous to a NATO conventional conflict with Russia? In a hypothetical scenario in which the US and NATO decide to commit to evicting Russia from Ukraine how to do you imagine that war going for Russia?
NATO vastly outproduce Russia in expensive assets like ships, planes, etc. Russia outproduce NATO in basic military consumables like ammunitions. The two statement do not contradict. As far as Ukraine war goes, basic consumables are the bottleneck not high end platforms. Therefore Russia outproduce entire NATO in this context.
 

SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
NATO vastly outproduce Russia in expensive assets like ships, planes, etc. Russia outproduce NATO in basic military consumables like ammunitions. The two statement do not contradict. As far as Ukraine war goes, basic consumables are the bottleneck not high end platforms. Therefore Russia outproduce entire NATO in this context.

So like what type of ammunition? Just shells or also small arms rounds? What about firearms? Are they outproducing NATO or is NATO just not donating enough?
 
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