The War in the Ukraine

solarz

Brigadier
Are you forgetting all the budget fights in the US legislature because of Ukrainian war funding?

The US MIC specialises in high value low volume production, whereas the war in Ukraine is chewing through everything in their catalogue at many times the replacement rates.

Not only are western arms getting used up and destroyed at unprecedented rates in Ukraine, it is also massively damaging to the reputations of western equipment makers to have their wares destroyed so easily and on such large scale by ‘inferior’ Russian kit.

Simply put, Ukraine is a fight western MIC isn’t geared up for nor particularly interested in fighting in since their equipment isn’t fighting hopelessly outmatched opponents.

The other major factor to consider is competition. The US MIC has a very good racket going on where they have a politically captive market and they can make stuff at their pace and sells it to the US military at a price they themselves set.

Ukraine is putting massive pressure on the US MIC to deliver stuff at a rate orders of magnitudes higher than what they can achieve. That is creating a massive and growing gulf between demand and supply. Which is a fundamental threat to the established big boys of the US MIC as it is creating a massive opening for new entrants into their walled garden private playgrounds.

If the war drags on for another year or two, how long before necessity forces Washington to award a big contract to a foreign manufacturer to plug the growing hole their domestic suppliers cannot meet?

But much of that might be moot, because the US MIC is already tapped out in terms of many core supplies and the US is making up the shortfall with the US military’s own reserves. How long until the US military starts to run out themselves? You think the Russians will conveniently call a ceasefire to wait for western MIC production to catch up?

What happens when core munitions and equipment starts to run out? Ukrainian casualties increase and they loose ground, as is happening already.

At the core of the issue is not the west’s desire to supply Ukraine, but its actual ability to do so. The US is finding out the hard way that their infinite dollars cheat doesn’t mean much when there are only finite physical assets it can manufacture, and that it cannot ramp up production as it could in its hay day.

NATO doesn't need to keep up with the Russians when supplying Ukraine. That is only necessary if they want to win the war.

What we are seeing right now is a shift in narrative and strategy where the West is transitioning from beating Russia to keeping Ukraine alive and/or "bleeding Russia dry". They are moving into assymetric warfare, in which they can supply Ukraine for a very long time.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
In what way is military production of Russia, "surpassing that of NATO"? Like number of ships produced, aircraft produced, certain types of munitions, tanks, small arms?
Russia delivered over 1500 tanks to their armed forces this year. What did NATO deliver? Russia regularly outproduces them all put together in tanks, artillery shells, loitering munitions, and cruise missiles. And certainly also in air defense equipment and air defense missiles. Russia is also ahead of NATO in terms of electronic warfare. Like GPS jamming.

Heck, NATO is having trouble even keeping Ukraine supplied with gun barrels.

Ships aren't that relevant in this conflict. Ukraine already lost like half its coastline. It's Navy is basically gone and they now resort to small drone boats and the manned boats they have are all pretty damn small. Ukraine ordered new "large" ships in Turkey. If they do activate them and put them into service I wonder how long they will last.

As for aircraft, Russia could use more ground attack aircraft to replace their losses in helicopters and attack aircraft. But with regards to air superiority and strategic air assets like fighters and strategic bombers, they have more of those today than when the conflict started.

I also see many people indicating that Russia is currently, "fighting NATO" as if fighting Ukraine is the equivalent to fighting the US and its NATO allies. I sincerely hope that people aren't confusing the current conflict between Ukraine and Russia as analogous to a NATO conventional conflict with Russia? In a hypothetical scenario in which the US and NATO decide to commit to evicting Russia from Ukraine how to do you imagine that war going for Russia?
Russia is indeed "fighting NATO" in a proxy war where Ukraine does the fighting for them. NATO basically dumped into Ukraine an amount of money basically equivalent to Ukraine's peacetime GDP so they could continue fighting Russia. And they have been doing loans and sending military equipment to Ukraine for a long time already even before the conflict started. For example Trump sent Javelin ATGMs to Ukraine.

Also, if NATO enters Ukraine in a big way, just like I said then Russia could just start using tactical nukes. You do know that the Iskander, Kh-101, Kalibr, Oniks, Kinzhal, and Zircon can use tactical nuclear warheads right? Even some of their artillery can fire tactical nukes.
 

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
So like what type of ammunition? Just shells or also small arms rounds? What about firearms? Are they outproducing NATO or is NATO just not donating enough?
There was a recent news regarding that

Alleged expected production rate for one of Russia's ammunition factory in 2024, totalling around 1.250.000 rounds between 203mm, 152mm, 125mm and 122mm rounds


Doing a bit of googling, I found a list of ammunition-production related factories in Russia. That's a ton of potential

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Bakhirevka is not even the largest one, apparently.
 

SlothmanAllen

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russia delivered over 1500 tanks to their armed forces this year. What did NATO deliver? Russia regularly outproduces them all put together in tanks, artillery shells, loitering munitions, and cruise missiles. And certainly also in air defense equipment and air defense missiles. Russia is also ahead of NATO in terms of electronic warfare. Like GPS jamming.

Heck, NATO is having trouble even keeping Ukraine supplied with gun .

So they built 1,500 tanks this past year? How many cruise missiles do they produce and of what types? How does that compare to NATO?

Just some stats I have from the US for the sake of comparison:
  • The US plans to produce a minimum of 6,000 Coyote Kinetic Interceptors of the next five years.
  • The US will produce 650 PAC 3MSE per year by 2027 (currently around 200)
  • The US will produce 14,000 GMLRS per year by 2027.
I have production numbers for the following munitions, but I don’t know the timeframes in which they are produced (I would imagine something like five years)
  • 3,300 Tomahawk Cruise Missiles
  • 1,100 PrSM missiles
  • 1,650 RIM-162
  • 1,980 RIM-116
  • 11,550 SDB-II
That’s what I have from my Twitter bookmarks. I’d be interested to see what Russian current production looks like. Also other NATO countries as well.

Some further info:
  • LRASM/JASSM production should be about 1,000 missiles per year by 2024
  • Tomahawk production is set to “sextuple” shortly, unfortunately I don’t have a base number to work from. I was able to find a contract award from 2006 that had Tomahawk production at 456 units per year (38 per month) though. At a production rate of 660 per years you could get 3,300 missiles quoted above over five years.
 
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Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russian military received more than 20 million rounds of ammunition in 2023.

That's a considerably higher number than from the entire NATO combined, multiple times over.

7200 anti-aircraft guided missiles for air defense systems were delivered this year as well.

I time-stamped the moment that those news appeared from the РИА Новости.


 

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member


North Korea directly outproduced the EU in the delivery of artillery shells 2x to Russia this year.

It's not a question of who has more money, inflated nominal GDPs, will, etc...

It's about who has actual tangible industry, assets, factories, workers, etc.

The West has the money, but they are de-industrialized.

Those 5, 10, and 20, year, plans of increasing production you can throw into the garbage.

That's not how economics work. To increase production and open more factories,

You need to build back all the previous industrial ecosystems you once had,

But now doesn't, industrial infrastructure, skilled and willing workers, willing to work there,

It's not like magic and poof you will increase production just by throwing money and saying so.


This is a great article exactly on this topic:


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As I have pointed out
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, the idea that Europe (and for that matter the US) can substantially rearm is a fantasy. I want to return to that theme but on a larger scale and based on more recent events, because I want to discuss three kinds of insuperable obstacles to this, and any other idea of “resisting” Russia. Some are practical, some are political, but I increasingly think the most important ones are cultural. Let’s look at them.

You can’t rebuild a defence industry and large armed forces from our kind of economy and society. I don’t mean “overnight,” I mean, at all. Consider: military technology has always required pre-existing technologies to develop and support it. When the tank (“armoured machine-gun destroyer”) was first proposed in World War 1, the technologies it required already existed. There were large metal-working industries making locomotives, commercial vehicles and ships, as well as protective armour-plating. The internal combustion engine was well-developed, tracks had been developed for agricultural machinery, and of course machine-guns had been produced for decades, and artillery for centuries. In addition, entire industries had developed to service and maintain lorries and agricultural machinery. Western nations had very large numbers of technical specialists, frequently issued from apprenticeship schemes, technical high-schools and university engineering departments trained the managers, and expertise was concentrated in quite large numbers of small companies, often run by engineers and designers who had founded them. The military generally had its own technical training schools, for officers and other ranks.

The result is that, in both World Wars, the civilian economy was able to turn quite quickly to military production, because the skills, the organisation, the management, the factories, the components and the raw materials were all there. Literally none of that is true now. It might be theoretically possible to build new factories to increase the production of a modern tank from forty to a hundred per year (five years, perhaps to design and build the factory) but the other ingredients, now disappeared or pared down to an absolute minimum, would take a generation to reconstitute, if that could be done at all. Around a third to a half of the cost of a modern tank is electronics and the West no longer controls the manufacture, or even the supply, of a lot of key electronic components. Then, of course, you need to recruit people who understand the technology, who will have to undergo long training in institutions by people who themselves already have this training, not too mention decades of practical experience.

In summary, therefore, once you have built-down an industry or a capability, it’s almost impossible to revive it. An unrelated anecdote: many years ago I sat in on a presentation by a British defence company to a group of visitors from Asia, proudly showing how they had reduced their estate and manpower progressively over the years to boost profits. I could feel the sense of panic in the audience as they quickly calculated how soon the company would close down entirely. You can’t change this mentality now in years, or even decades. No company is going to build new facilities and ramp up production unless it is forced to, when there are easier ways of making money.

Today’s analogy for the tank would be, I suppose, the long-range conventional land or air-launched missile, of which the Kinzhal is the best-known example. Such a missile travels at speeds of up to Mach 10 and can manoeuvre in flight. Most of the elements of these technologies don’t exist in the West, because we have got rid of the precursor technologies, the training and education and the industrial facilities which would have made their development possible. However much notional money is pushed into the defence industry, you can’t buy back things you have already destroyed. And the West has no technologies capable of stopping these missiles either, and no chance of developing them: a political point of some importance that I return to below.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I also see many people indicating that Russia is currently, "fighting NATO" as if fighting Ukraine is the equivalent to fighting the US and its NATO allies. I sincerely hope that people aren't confusing the current conflict between Ukraine and Russia as analogous to a NATO conventional conflict with Russia? In a hypothetical scenario in which the US and NATO decide to commit to evicting Russia from Ukraine how to do you imagine that war going for Russia?
By your logic, US was only fighting a tiny country called North Vietnam in the 1970s and lost miserably? China and USSR certainly had nothing to do with it, the Northern Vietnamese magically had endless of ammunition, AA missiles and could send all their able-bodied men and wemen in the fight without worrying of who to feed them.
 

Sheleah

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russian military received more than 20 million rounds of ammunition in 2023.

This is like tanks and vehicles, "receive" is not the same as "produce"... the quantities of ammunition received from third countries must be included...

Unlike NATO countries, Russia is at war, and its industrial machinery tries to adjust to it, but the losses and needs exceed the production of its industry, few new equipment, reincorporation of equipment in reserve with years under the sun, water and snow, as well as visit your allies to request ammunition...

NATO countries give Ukraine old material, but they will update their inventories, without the rush of being involved in an open war... for next year, some countries will give old F-16s to Ukraine, but they will have more modern equipment to substitute, such as F-35, while Russia has not yet been able to produce the number of aircraft confirmed since the beginning of the invasion.... Russia loses 100 T-90s and has to replace them with 100 reconditioned tanks between T-72s, T-80s and even T-55s to cover spaces... I really don't know how they want to compare the military attrition of Russia VS the countries of NATO, not to mention the manpower and professionals with experience in weapons systems, which end up being much more difficult to replace than the equipment itself

I expected to see Russian production of at least 300 factory-new T-90s and about 200 Armatas.... perhaps pre-war Russian propaganda invaded my senses, but the reality is that the numbers of new equipment, for the Russian situation, it is low...

Russia had a lot of reserve ammunition inherited from the USSR, but they are not infinite, it is not strange that they continue visiting North Korea, China or Iran to try to negotiate ammunition in exchange for oil and other commodities... The Russian headlines will continue talking of "deliveries" but will ignore the "production" figures of their local industry
 
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