The War in the Ukraine

T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Use drone. Track soldiers to their hideout. Use Krasnopol on said hideout.


This looks like a laser guided strike from a Russian 2S1 Gvozdika with a 122mm. This would be a Kitolov. From Ukrainian Gvozdikas that would be the Karasuk. These enable such Cold War vintage SPGs first strike capabilities like a modern weapon. Here a Ukrainian command post gets knocked out at Prechistovka.


M777 gets knocked out by Lancet.


AMX-10RC captured and being towed back to Russia.

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Abandoned Ukrainian T-72M1 in the Rabotino area.

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Ukrainian howitzer blasted by the 292nd Regiment of the 58th Army in Zaporozhye.

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Handiwork of the 247th Cossack Regiment at Staromayorsky.

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Ukrainian Grad MLRS taken out by fire from a Russian MSTA-B, probably with Krasnopol use.

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kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
daifo said:
WSJ news piece about the use of cheap drones by ukraine (and russia). I am surprise that these relatively small drones are capble of taking out armor as the videos I remember seeing in the past has been mostly of them just droping grenades onto infantry.

Click to expand...
I am also surprised. APFSDS, HEAT, even an RPG etc. are specially designed to penetrate and neutralized armor with high KE forces.
A lancet or any small drones OTOH travels at a relative slow speed yet is able to effectively KIA a tank like the Leo2s.
I don't believe the drones carry a lot of HE either and they are certainly are not shaped like kinetic round.
The physics doesn't make sense. Maybe someone well verse in kinetics can help me understand.
How much explosives are the lancet carrying?
 
S

Stealthflanker

Senior Member
Registered Member
kwaigonegin said:
I am also surprised. APFSDS, HEAT, even an RPG etc. are specially designed to penetrate and neutralized armor with high KE forces.
Click to expand...

They're kinda different tho. particularly in how they penetrate. APFSDS needs high velocity while the HEAT which is what RPG warhead is, are much slower and can do so because it use shaped charge principles.

kwaigonegin said:
I don't believe the drones carry a lot of HE either and they are certainly are not shaped like kinetic round.
Click to expand...

There are shaped charge principles here, where you can use explosive to collapse a liner (usually copper) which form a thin, fast and long "Jet" which behave like a water cutter and cut its way into the armor. like this


You dont need much explosive for that and hell, PG-7 warhead didnt carry much either and weighs around 3-5 Kg which basically what Lancet carry.
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
gelgoog said:
Ukrainian BMP column gets pretty much pummeled around Zaporizhzhia. Really nasty.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1684603840417394688

Video shows how much more effective the Russians are at destroying opposing vehicle columns than when the conflict started.
Click to expand...

This looks like the work of Russian jumping mines, both POM-2 or an improved version of it, and that of PTKM-1R.

kwaigonegin said:
I am also surprised. APFSDS, HEAT, even an RPG etc. are specially designed to penetrate and neutralized armor with high KE forces.
A lancet or any small drones OTOH travels at a relative slow speed yet is able to effectively KIA a tank like the Leo2s.
I don't believe the drones carry a lot of HE either and they are certainly are not shaped like kinetic round.
The physics doesn't make sense. Maybe someone well verse in kinetics can help me understand.
How much explosives are the lancet carrying?
Click to expand...

Already explained by someone else but this column looks to me it's being destroyed systematically by jumping mines. A jumping mine attack can resemble being hit by ATGMs and RPGs from all directions. As the BMPs are being hit from the sides, they are being hit from the most vulnerable sides and these jumping mines are meant to kills all sorts of vehicles including tanks. One jumping mine, which is the PTKM-1R being mentioned, jumps high and strikes from above hitting the top of the vehicle which is at it's most vulnerable. This attack would look like an artillery or drone attack.

The media including the blogger internet on both sides have not rolled their head around the concept of smart jumping mines, and will explain such attacks from something else.
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Krasnopol strike on a vehicle at Zaporhyzhia by Russian Marines. This can be the recently decorated Guards 40th Marine Brigade.

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M113 getting popped at Zaporhyzhia.

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Numerous Ukrainian vehicles burning at Zaporhyzhia, Rabotino area.

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Ukrainian position hit by ATGM with thermal sights.

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T-90s from Group V hit on Ukrainian positions.

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Captured YPR-765.

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New vehicle appearing with Russian forces, the 2S41 Drok. This is an 82mm mortar mounted on a Typhoon.

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S

Soldier30

Senior Member
Registered Member
The first defeat of the Swedish CV90 armored vehicle of the Ukrainian army in a ground battle. The first footage of the defeat of the Swedish CV90 infantry fighting vehicle of the Ukrainian army during the battle has been published. The CV-90 armored vehicle started firing on the move and was hit by a grenade launcher in the Svatovo-Kremennoye direction. After the armored car was hit, another Ukrainian CV9040 infantry fighting vehicle approached it, but this video breaks off. The fate of the crew of the armored vehicle is unknown, the video has been shortened.

 
H

Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
kwaigonegin said:
I am also surprised. APFSDS, HEAT, even an RPG etc. are specially designed to penetrate and neutralized armor with high KE forces.
A lancet or any small drones OTOH travels at a relative slow speed yet is able to effectively KIA a tank like the Leo2s.
Click to expand...

APFSDS are classified as KE (Kinetic Energy) penetrators
HEAT are classified as CE (Chemical Energy) penetrators

This actually adds to the confusion as both penetration mechanisms are technically the same and predicated on high speed, long rod penetrators.

KE penetrators are termed such because the penetrator is mechanically so - it relies on the kinetic energy within the penetrator. It's shape is a long rod. It achieves it's high speed via a reaction that occurs outside of the penetrator and much further downrange from point of impact. The key factors affecting penetration are the velocity, density and L/d ratio of the penetrator.

CE penetrators are termed such because the penetrator is the result of a chemical explosive event (eg. a shaped charge), on a ductile material, formed and accelerated at the point of impact. Key factors for affecting penetration are cone diameter and standoff distance - all else being equal. "All else being equal" because shape charge penetration attributes are heavily affected by the build material and quality of the shape charge. Same cone diameter, standoff distance, cone material and explosive type could still result in up to 5x difference in penetration capability due to how finely put together the round is.

Penetration mechanism for KE and CE rounds are about the same. Extremely high velocity penetrators with very high L/d ratios resulting in the armour and penetrator interacting like fluids rather than solids. Hydrodynamic plastic deformation rather than brute force material failure.

kwaigonegin said:
I don't believe the drones carry a lot of HE either and they are certainly are not shaped like kinetic round.
The physics doesn't make sense. Maybe someone well verse in kinetics can help me understand.
How much explosives are the lancet carrying?
Click to expand...

So to answer your question - HEAT (CE) penetrators are accelerated to high speeds by the shape charge at the point of impact. As such the speed of the round/warhead itself is quite irrelevant. The bigger the shape charge, the more it can penetrate (as well as accommodate tandem warheads to defeat ERA/NERA clocks).

By way of example, some FPV drones literally have a RPG7 warhead strapped to them. A 7VL warhead (single HEAT) is about 2.5kg with about 700g of explosive filler.

O/T but EFPs (despite being a shape charge with a liner) are technically KE
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Heliox said:
APFSDS are classified as KE (Kinetic Energy) penetrators
HEAT are classified as CE (Chemical Energy) penetrators

This actually adds to the confusion as both penetration mechanisms are technically the same and predicated on high speed, long rod penetrators.

KE penetrators are termed such because the penetrator is mechanically so - it relies on the kinetic energy within the penetrator. It's shape is a long rod. It achieves it's high speed via a reaction that occurs outside of the penetrator and much further downrange from point of impact. The key factors affecting penetration are the velocity, density and L/d ratio of the penetrator.

CE penetrators are termed such because the penetrator is the result of a chemical explosive event (eg. a shaped charge), on a ductile material, formed and accelerated at the point of impact. Key factors for affecting penetration are cone diameter and standoff distance - all else being equal. "All else being equal" because shape charge penetration attributes are heavily affected by the build material and quality of the shape charge. Same cone diameter, standoff distance, cone material and explosive type could still result in up to 5x difference in penetration capability due to how finely put together the round is.

Penetration mechanism for KE and CE rounds are about the same. Extremely high velocity penetrators with very high L/d ratios resulting in the armour and penetrator interacting like fluids rather than solids. Hydrodynamic plastic deformation rather than brute force material failure.



So to answer your question - HEAT (CE) penetrators are accelerated to high speeds by the shape charge at the point of impact. As such the speed of the round/warhead itself is quite irrelevant. The bigger the shape charge, the more it can penetrate (as well as accommodate tandem warheads to defeat ERA/NERA clocks).

By way of example, some FPV drones literally have a RPG7 warhead strapped to them. A 7VL warhead (single HEAT) is about 2.5kg with about 700g of explosive filler.

O/T but EFPs (despite being a shape charge with a liner) are technically KE
Click to expand...
Thanks for the explanation. So can it be inferred that a 'slowish' drone like Lancet uses shape charged warhead to achieve it's kill?
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
kwaigonegin said:
Thanks for the explanation. So can it be inferred that a 'slowish' drone like Lancet uses shape charged warhead to achieve it's kill?
Click to expand...

Yes. It's been pointed out already for months. It appears the Lancet may have three warheads, used for different situations --- HE-FRAG, HEAT and Thermobaric. HEAT is used to attack armored vehicles, HE-FRAG and Thermobaric against lightly armored or non armored vehicles like SAMs, trucks, APCs and static targets like towed howitzers, radars, command posts, Starlink antennas, etc,.
 
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