The War in the Ukraine

tankphobia said:

Well this is a military forum, so I want to keep the topic on military only. What I think about Ukranian lives or Russian lives matter little in the grand scheme of things. If stating that Ukranians are doing pretty well considering their equipment and artillery disadvantage thoughout the war is somehow too pro-Ukranian for this forum I don't really know what else to say.

It is not my place to denigrate people who are drafted to defend their country, no matter their prior occupation before the war began, drafting is quite a normal part of any war.

I'm also not here to get cheap brownie points by highlighting how much civilians are suffering on both sides, as the Ukraine war is barely related to to Chinese military matter as is.

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Suffering of civilians is a normal part of total war. The stated goal of Ukraine is the total disintegration of Russia, thus it is a total war to the death, loser gets annihilated. Only one will survive, and in terms of attacking Ukrainian infrastructure, economy and demographics, Russia is winning by a landslide.

Ukraine has disadvantages in artillery and armor? Sucks for them. they have the advantage in manpower 900k to 400k, why doesn't that even out? Yet despite this massive numerical advantage they are still unable to stop Russia from making their country look like Fallout. Meanwhile Russian citizens live in relative luxury and the war is just something happening "over there".

Overbom said:

I dont think it matter if Russia inflicts disproportionate casualties on Ukrainians.

The only thing that matters on a war is strategy. Availability of warm bodies is probably one of the least issues that Ukraine has now.

In a similar way, you compare Russia to Ukraine which is ok, but you don't mention NATO there. NATO is getting the deal of the century by inflicting catastrophic military damage to Russia's military just by sending to Ukraine outdated equipment and printing some paper money. Couple that with economic damage setting Russia back a decades, and that's a crazily good deal for them.

So yeah, Russia militarily (casualties-wise) beats Ukraine, but Russia is getting strategically beaten by NATO.

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NATO took 1 trillion in economic losses due to higher gas prices and industry shutdowns while losing 10k Polish mercenaries KIA. Meanwhile Russia has the economy and population of just a single NATO country.

FairAndUnbiased said:

NATO took 1 trillion in economic losses due to higher gas prices and industry shutdowns while losing 10k Polish mercenaries KIA. Meanwhile Russia has the economy and population of just a single NATO country.

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As I said, paper money. The FED and ECB can print that money in a single year and nobody would bat an eye

Anyway, lets stop here because we are getting offtopic

FairAndUnbiased said:

More important than anything is the myth of invincibility of western equipment. That myth is being utterly shattered. M777, M113, PZH-2000, Krab, etc. are proving to be fragile and weak garage queens with little potential for use in high intensity conflict. The only equipment being proven to work somewhat is HIMARS backed by the US ISR network which we've always known would somewhat work.

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Rocket artillery shooting from the max range is a very tough target for artillery. It just releases a few missiles and then proceeds to leave the area. The best counter against them is probably a fast and long-range fiber-optic/data-link guided missile with loiter capability.
You will send it to the direction which the missiles came from. Then it will find and destroy the launcher. Things like these:

tankphobia said:

Well this is a military forum, so I want to keep the topic on military only. What I think about Ukranian lives or Russian lives matter little in the grand scheme of things. If stating that Ukranians are doing pretty well considering their equipment and artillery disadvantage thoughout the war is somehow too pro-Ukranian for this forum I don't really know what else to say.

It is not my place to denigrate people who are drafted to defend their country, no matter their prior occupation before the war began, drafting is quite a normal part of any war.

I'm also not here to get cheap brownie points by highlighting how much civilians are suffering on both sides, as the Ukraine war is barely related to to Chinese military matter as is.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but the mighty USA and NATO training, strategy and equipment good only to conduct 60s Chinese style, mass human wave attacks and defence with extreme casualities.

The current NATOstrategy regards of the war is the same that you expect in the 60s Chinese military doctrine. Even the Chinese movies from that age describe the foot soldier with guns and anti armor weapons as the backbone of the army.

And this is the best that the USA can show - no industrial capacity for anything more than this.

One thing to note for this particular fight is that the Russians have air supremacy not to mention much greater fire power. Since Ukrainian training by the west mostly is done with having air superiority in mind so that the Ukrainians can rely on American support to bomb the Russians like the USA did in Afghanistan and Iraq. With most of the air defenses in Ukraine out commission along with most of the air bases (with prospective repairs extremely difficult to accomplish under siege), the loses in Ukraine will pile up. How anyone can claim that NATO is winning in is simply ridiculous simply due to many of these members are experiencing shortages in weapons due to how quickly the Ukrainians are using said weapons along with the accompanying economic damage due to being cut off from the cheaper resources that was once there.

One thing Biden said about Ukrainian aid, apparently 2,000 tanks have been delivered to the Ukraine since the war started from more than 50 countries.

First, that is an insane number, more than every NATO member's inventory bar Turkey and America. I know Ukrainians exported some tanks to Africa, but they were mostly in small numbers. I think a lot of countries tank inventory will be depleted.

Secondly, where are all these tanks?

Abominable said:

One thing Biden said about Ukrainian aid, apparently 2,000 tanks have been delivered to the Ukraine since the war started from more than 50 countries.

First, that is an insane number, more than every NATO member's inventory bar Turkey and America. I know Ukrainians exported some tanks to Africa, but they were mostly in small numbers. I think a lot of countries tank inventory will be depleted.

Secondly, where are all these tanks?

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Propangda use of the word tank as all combat vehicles including tanks, mobile artillery and IFV. This might be close to 2000.
Not just tanks

Abominable said:

One thing Biden said about Ukrainian aid, apparently 2,000 tanks have been delivered to the Ukraine since the war started from more than 50 countries.

First, that is an insane number, more than every NATO member's inventory bar Turkey and America. I know Ukrainians exported some tanks to Africa, but they were mostly in small numbers. I think a lot of countries tank inventory will be depleted.

Secondly, where are all these tanks?

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Statements of Biden and Gerasimov in recent days:

Biden said:
More than 50 nations have committed nearly 2,000 tanks and other armored vehicles; more than 800 artillery systems; more 2 million rounds of artillery ammunition; and more than fif- — more than 50 advanced multiple rocket launching systems; anti-ship and anti- — and air defense systems all to strengthen Ukraine.

Gerasimov said:
In total, since the beginning of the special military operation, Western countries have provided Kiev with 4 aircraft; more than 30 helicopters; over 350 tanks; about 1,000 armored fighting vehicles; about 800 armored vehicles; as well as up to 700 artillery systems; 100 MLRS units; 130 000 anti-tank weapons; over 5300 man-portable air-defense systems (MANPADS) and over 5000 drones.

Sources:

FairAndUnbiased said:

More important than anything is the myth of invincibility of western equipment. That myth is being utterly shattered. M777, M113, PZH-2000, Krab, etc. are proving to be fragile and weak garage queens with little potential for use in high intensity conflict. The only equipment being proven to work somewhat is HIMARS backed by the US ISR network which we've always known would somewhat work.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't over emphasis the importance of HIMARS. HIMARS are just MLRS, with accurate GPS guidance. Russia have those too, they are call BM30 andTornado MLRS, I believe the Russian range is 50? to 200km? HIMAR range is like 80 to 90km? I mean, maybe HIMARS can be accurate to like 1 to 2 meters, while the Russian rockets are only accurate (GLONASS) to maybe 10-20 meters? I wasn't able to find reliable data on the CES of Russian rockets.

HIMAR have about 100kg or less explosive, this is a decent amount of explosive. while the Russian have warhead of 250kg. With a more accurate weapon, you can use a smaller warhead. Less accuracy need bigger warhead. All in all, Russian MLRS are designed to do achieve the same or similar end result as nato MLRS. Whether it's with more accurate shots, or bigger boom.

If Ukraine is destroying Russia with 40 or less HIMAR. What about the over 100 long range MLRS Russians have? They just sit and look pretty?