The War in the Ukraine

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
All of a sudden there's been a lot of Forpost footage released by Russians. 6 videos released in the last week alone.


Earlier in the war Ukrainian TB-2s and Russian Orions didn't last long in the air, and there haven't been any released videos for months.

I wonder why they're suddenly effective. Has Ukraine's air defences been suppressed enough for them to operate? Or maybe they are small enough they can't be engaged effectively?


Orlans have been very effective throughout the war. Even when they are taken down they are cheap enough to be replaced with mass production. An Orlan isn't bigger than a kamikaze drone and are packed and assembled in kits in the field. The big difference for Orlans is that the Orlan 10 now flies higher making them less detectable by sound and sight, better optics from a long distance, thermal imaging, laser guidance for guided rounds. In addition they are supplemented by a new drone, the Orlan 30.

The thing about the Forpost is they are more expensive and longer ranged. Sightings of their attacks means costs of production may have been lowered to make them more expendable, while deteriorating air defenses allow them to operate more freely, they might be flying higher to evade attacks. Or a combination of these factors at work. Even when attacked, it will only invite a kamikaze drone into the SAM unit, so the SAMs may not engage at all, or save themselves for a juicier target. It's possible that the Forposts themselves are being used as SAM bait, given that Orlans are too cheap and replenishable to waste precious SAMs on.

Was going to post this as a separate post anyway.

Updates from @milchronicles.

Ukrainian Armed Forces are retreating to the outskirts of Marinka with heavy losses: details

Since December 20, units of the 79th Air Assault Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, occupying positions in the western part of the city, have suffered heavy losses in Marinka.

During the counter-battery fight, serious damage was inflicted on the howitzer artillery battalion of the Armed Forces of Ukraine with D-30 guns of 122 mm caliber.

According to the Military Chronicle,
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were recorded in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th airborne assault battalions of the 79th brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, reconnaissance and airborne and tank companies of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

The number of dead and seriously wounded in these units since December 15 is estimated at the level of 350 to 460 people. Due to serious losses, the brigade had to be urgently reinforced with mobilized from the Nikolaev and Kherson regions, as well as to send a security company and engineering units retrained as attack aircraft to the line of clashes.

According to the Military Chronicle, the key reason for the heavy losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Marinka was the activity of artillery and armored vehicles of the RF Armed Forces. The T-72B3 tanks are rapidly advancing towards the western outskirts of the city with the support of drones, which allows the crews to scout dangerous positions and fire at firing points in buildings with minimal risk.

According to the radio intercepts of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the units of the 79th Airborne Infantry Battalion recorded a shortage of communications and surveillance equipment, ammunition for machine guns and machine guns and means for dressing wounds, as well as quadrocopters, with the help of which reconnaissance of the positions of the RF Armed Forces was carried out. Also, units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine complain about an acute shortage of anti-tank weapons - there are not enough grenade launchers and ammunition for them.

Due to the rapid deterioration of the tactical situation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, since the evening of December 23, the remaining forces have been accumulating on the western outskirts of Maryinka in the area of Shakhtyorskaya and Poligraficheskaya streets, where the field headquarters is gradually transferred from the central fortified area.

In case of failure at the last line of defense, the units of the Ukrainian army plan to retreat to reserve positions to the fortified area in the area of the Maryinsky dam, where the batteries of the BM-21 Grad complexes were previously located. However, control over the city in this case will be completely lost.
 
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Rast

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Quick calcualtion, the full operation/maintanance cost of a M60A3 tank ,with ammunition and 1200 miles driving range, in a 2000 tank fleet cost 800 000 USD in 2022 dollars.

It expecting a ready to go manufacturing base.

Means sending example 500 M60A3 would cost in the range of 0.5-2 billion USD+ the establishment of required maintanace insfrstructure/industrial base.

And due to the above numbers the users has teh tendency of using up the best tanks until last moment, mothballing the worst ones and using them as spare part depository.
And means when they mothball the whole fleet they already run out of spares, and only a handfull tank is in operational condition.


Now, if the USA wants to make opearational say the 500 tanks mentioned above then most likelly they have to stop all maintanance related activity on the Abrams tanks ,and stop use them for a half year. After receiveing the spares.

Would be easier to send to Ukraine 500-1000 Abrams, with spares and so on, but that most likelly would use up all USA Army spare parts in short period of time, making the remaining tanks in the USA fleet unoperational for 1-2 years.


Refurbishment isn't the only option. If NATO was going to send M60s, they could buy portions of Taiwan's ~480 operational M60A3s and ship them to Ukraine. Taiwan is already in the process of receiving 108 M1A2 SEPv2 Abrams. So the loss in tank numbers won't be a long term issue if the US authorizes additional Abrams sales to Taiwan.
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
More important than anything is the myth of invincibility of western equipment. That myth is being utterly shattered. M777, M113, PZH-2000, Krab, etc. are proving to be fragile and weak garage queens with little potential for use in high intensity conflict. The only equipment being proven to work somewhat is HIMARS backed by the US ISR network which we've always known would somewhat work.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
More important than anything is the myth of invincibility of western equipment. That myth is being utterly shattered. M777, M113, PZH-2000, Krab, etc. are proving to be fragile and weak garage queens with little potential for use in high intensity conflict. The only equipment being proven to work somewhat is HIMARS backed by the US ISR network which we've always known would somewhat work.
Are they being shattered though? Despite the disparity in equipment number the Ukranians are doing pretty OK at the moment, the Russians have been doing "meat grinder" operations for the last 10 months or so with minmal degradation to Ukranian armed forces effectiveness as a whole. Progress in Bakhmut is so slow that people in this very thread are just reposting the same 1km stretch of land going back and forth rather than large scale mobile warfare.

Yes the equipment and manpower loss is heavy, but we haven't seen any recent large scale retreat due to losses from the Ukranian side, most of the territory gaines by Russia is still only from the first few months of the war.

Furthermore western light weight AT has more then proven themselves in this conflict.
 

muddie

Junior Member
minmal degradation to Ukranian armed forces effectiveness as a whole.
Eh... Zelensky wouldn't be going around begging for weapons and calling for another round of mobilization (what 10th round now?) if there was just "minimal degration" to AFU.

Territory gains versus losses does not seem to be Russia's priority. It seems Russia is more focused on inflicting high casualties on the AFU, raising the cost of the war for the West. Not retreating to preserve strength and fight another day may be a strategic mistake by the AFU.

If Ukraine is willing to continue reinforcing Bakhmut where they are sustaining high casualties, they are just playing into Russia's hands.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Are they being shattered though? Despite the disparity in equipment number the Ukranians are doing pretty OK at the moment, the Russians have been doing "meat grinder" operations for the last 10 months or so with minmal degradation to Ukranian armed forces effectiveness as a whole. Progress in Bakhmut is so slow that people in this very thread are just reposting the same 1km stretch of land going back and forth rather than large scale mobile warfare.

Yes the equipment and manpower loss is heavy, but we haven't seen any recent large scale retreat due to losses from the Ukranian side, most of the territory gaines by Russia is still only from the first few months of the war.

Furthermore western light weight AT has more then proven themselves in this conflict.
Russians are at a numerical disadvantage though, yet are still inflicting disproportionate casualties on Ukrainians. Life in Russia continues as normal with people enjoying gas, electricity, going to school, having normal jobs, etc even as Ukrainians are under draconian restrictions, living in bombed out ruins, drinking dirty water, freezing in the dark, etc while being shelled and bombed.

Russian cities don't get cruise missiles or laser guided bombs through the windows. Russians aren't being duct taped to light poles and whipped by PVC pipe. Russians aren't being banned from leaving the country. Career choices in Russia are much less restricted than in Ukraine where even middle aged video game developers are forced to the front.

Surprised that you treat Ukrainian lives with such callous disregard.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
Russians are at a numerical disadvantage though, yet are still inflicting disproportionate casualties on Ukrainians. Life in Russia continues as normal with people enjoying gas, electricity, going to school, having normal jobs, etc even as Ukrainians are under draconian restrictions, living in bombed out ruins, drinking dirty water, freezing in the dark, etc while being shelled and bombed.

Russian cities don't get cruise missiles or laser guided bombs through the windows. Russians aren't being duct taped to light poles and whipped by PVC pipe. Russians aren't being banned from leaving the country. Career choices in Russia are much less restricted than in Ukraine where even middle aged video game developers are forced to the front.

Surprised that you treat Ukrainian lives with such callous disregard.
Well this is a military forum, so I want to keep the topic on military only. What I think about Ukranian lives or Russian lives matter little in the grand scheme of things. If stating that Ukranians are doing pretty well considering their equipment and artillery disadvantage thoughout the war is somehow too pro-Ukranian for this forum I don't really know what else to say.

It is not my place to denigrate people who are drafted to defend their country, no matter their prior occupation before the war began, drafting is quite a normal part of any war.

I'm also not here to get cheap brownie points by highlighting how much civilians are suffering on both sides, as the Ukraine war is barely related to to Chinese military matter as is.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Russians are at a numerical disadvantage though, yet are still inflicting disproportionate casualties on Ukrainians. Life in Russia continues as normal with people enjoying gas, electricity, going to school, having normal jobs, etc even as Ukrainians are under draconian restrictions, living in bombed out ruins, drinking dirty water, freezing in the dark, etc while being shelled and bombed.
I dont think it matter if Russia inflicts disproportionate casualties on Ukrainians.

The only thing that matters on a war is strategy. Availability of warm bodies is probably one of the least issues that Ukraine has now.

In a similar way, you compare Russia to Ukraine which is ok, but you don't mention NATO there. NATO is getting the deal of the century by inflicting catastrophic military damage to Russia's military just by sending to Ukraine outdated equipment and printing some paper money. Couple that with economic damage setting Russia back a decades, and that's a crazily good deal for them.

So yeah, Russia militarily (casualties-wise) beats Ukraine, but Russia is getting strategically beaten by NATO.
 
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