broadsword
Brigadier
Over at CNN, people are having a helluva time giving their pub-drinking commentaries.
The Snowden Affair
- Thread starter AssassinsMace
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AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
I bet Hillary hasn't said anything because she's waiting to see where the wind blows.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Funny how Chen suddenly decided to go to Taiwan for no apparent reason other than to p!ss China off, looks to me like Washington decided to play their own little chess piece to get some payback on China for Snowden.
But all those people suggesting that Snowdon was some Chinese agent and the whole affair is some masterstroke by Beijing is in danger of falling into the same 'want to have the cake and eat it too' trap that snarled so many American Internet trolls that we so recently mocked about bashing China for hacking and then gloating about a recent article cheekily title about the NSA 'pwning' China in the hacking game. Besides, naming Snowden a Chinese agent is exactly the spin American PR attack dogs have been using to try and slander him. We would be unwise to let them play to our pride and fall for their petty tricks so happily just because it makes China look good.
If Snowden was a Chinese agent, then the likes of Dick and MacCain would actually be right to heap derision on him no? And Snowden's actions makes little sense if he was indeed a Chinese agent.
Firstly, it would be a bit of an own goal and supply easy ammunition to his many detractors and enemies if he was a Chinese agent and went running back to China, as that would just make it easier to dismiss him and his acquisitions as a 'frame' and the work of the 'evil red commies'.
Secondly, if he was a Chinese agent, why ever would he leave the safety of his patron to go to Russia now?
Thirdly, it is really not in China's style to make such a direct confrontation against America even if China wanted to make an issue, and as such, the choice of HK makes little sense as that just draws way too much attention to China for Beijing's liking.
Fourthly, even though Snowden's actions have been a big boon for Beijing, China has not really made as much hay out of this incident as you would expect if it was all secretly planned in Beijing beforehand, certainly not enough to warrant attracting all the attention to China's own door by having him announce from HK. I mean, what additional benefit did China get from Snowden's presence in HK that it would not have gotten with him making his announcement from anywhere else on the planet?
Indeed, the only thing linking Snowden to China is the fact that he made his announcement in HK, and also the timing of his announcement, which neatly undermined Obama's fake indignation about Chinese hacking during his recent meeting with Xi.
However, the timing of Snowden's announcement was explained by Snowden himself when he made plain his distaste for America's hypocrisy in publicly naming and shaming China about hacking when their own hacking likely puts anything China does to shame.
With regards to Snowden's choice of HK, well, that is simply a matter of necessity. Snowden knew that he needed to make his announcement from a democracy, or else his detractors and enemies will simply brand him an enemy of democracy, and in America and much of the west, that's not much worse than being named a child raper. But even with him in HK, that still did not stop the likes of Dick and McCain from trying now did it?
HK is pretty much the only place on earth Snowden could have made his announcement where there is s strong democratic values, yet run little to no risk of him being immediately renditioned to camp X-ray or some middle eastern torture centre at worst, or spend the rest of his life in solitary like Manning, and that is only because HK is Chinese territory and cannot be easily bullied or strongarmed by America (not that that stopped America from trying). Now isn't that a damning indictment of the realities of the how much protection the much vaunted rule of law really offers to anyone who crosses Washington in the democratic world.
MwRYum
Major
IIRC, that blind guy's visit to Taiwan was announced before this whole thing, at least it got mentioned on newspapers when his relatives managed to get a passport to meet him there, so it isn't exactly tit-for-tat per se, but more like now the biggest news just flew to Moscow, the newsmen need something else to fill the slot...or Chen's handler have the intent now to spin this. It matters little really, his fallout with NYU discredited him a lot.
Now back to topic...
For a bit now I kinda wonder...if the FBI had made an announcement that they put Snowden on the Ten Most Wanted list, with a US$5 million bounty dead or alive, would Snowden still able to make it to the flight, or 7 million Hong Kongers looking for him to earn that bounty?
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
Because of what happened to Julian Assange is probably why Snowden could not go to any European country. Great Britain is the NSA's partner in crime.
One of the points made how this is different from China's hacking is that the US doesn't engage in commercial espionage. Then why did the British hack into the G8 and G20 summits? Those were economic forums. And why did the NSA hack into universities in China and Hong Kong? What else are you going to find there but information about technology. Why would the NSA also collect general public cell phone messaging data in China? Are they looking for terrorists planning an attack on the US? Look at what the NYTimes tried to do with Wen Jiaboa. They tried to smear him with scandals like a tabloid would do. Were they hoping create outrage among the Chinese population so regime change can happen that way? Are we going to hear some day that information was obtained though NSA hacking and passed to news journalists? Maybe it will be used to blackmail those in powerful positions in other countries. Are we going to hear intimate details about Chinese leaders through the media soon? Remember how Hillary was inspired by how social media overthrew governments in the Arab Spring. It could be the new tactic to change other governments.
BTW, does Chen look like a stereotypical gangster to anyone else? He looks like he's giving a diabolical laugh in every picture.
One of the points made how this is different from China's hacking is that the US doesn't engage in commercial espionage. Then why did the British hack into the G8 and G20 summits? Those were economic forums. And why did the NSA hack into universities in China and Hong Kong? What else are you going to find there but information about technology. Why would the NSA also collect general public cell phone messaging data in China? Are they looking for terrorists planning an attack on the US? Look at what the NYTimes tried to do with Wen Jiaboa. They tried to smear him with scandals like a tabloid would do. Were they hoping create outrage among the Chinese population so regime change can happen that way? Are we going to hear some day that information was obtained though NSA hacking and passed to news journalists? Maybe it will be used to blackmail those in powerful positions in other countries. Are we going to hear intimate details about Chinese leaders through the media soon? Remember how Hillary was inspired by how social media overthrew governments in the Arab Spring. It could be the new tactic to change other governments.
BTW, does Chen look like a stereotypical gangster to anyone else? He looks like he's giving a diabolical laugh in every picture.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
Ok, fair enough, but then I never give these media whores much attention as I know exactly the kind Chinese people the western media would fawn all over and they are not the kind of people I would waste any attention on.
Somehow I doubt Snowden would just saunter up to the check-in desk all alone and out in the open.
I don't think anyone seriously expects the US to dare make a move on Snowden while he is on Chinese territory, but it doesn't pay to take unnecessary risks because it would be a massive PR black eye for China if Snowden was snatched right out from under Beijing's nose just before he left.
MwRYum
Major
The current version is that a lawyer who are part of the legal aid team for Snowden, went with him to the airport - which has quite an element of testing waters because the HKSAR government up till then never made it clear that Snowden can freely leave if he wish, and Snowden decided to leave because the US really cranking up the heat on HK government, so it was a "now or never" kind of thing for him.
That said, the US should've crank the media war to high gear sooner, issue the warrant sooner and better yet, issue a "dead or alive" bounty on his head. Hong Kong people love money, and the US failed to exploit that. Thus they missed the window of opportunity...from hereon, if the US authority want that guy so badly, they'd need to do something that'd rival Call of Duty Black Ops...
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I think that is being overly trusting. I seriously doubt Snowden's whereabouts is a secret to anyone in intelligence circles around the world, or that he could have left if Beijing didn't want him to go. It would also be naive to think that Snowden has not been contacted by representatives of Beijing, and I think his decision to leave HK may have everything to do with what they told him.
With no disrespect intended to Russia, but Russia has nothing over HK and I seriously doubt Snowden would have left if Beijing said he was welcome and safe in HK.
From China's POV, Snowden is a relatively junior analysis with limited intelligence value to start with, and if I am right about him, an actual American patriot, and his value to Chinese intelligence is pretty much limited to the public revelations he made. Moreover, as soon as he went public, any classified intel he might have had would have to be considered immediated obsolete since the NSA would have taken immediate steps to make sure anything Snowden might have known could not be used to compromise their security or ongoing programmes.
OTOH, so long as Snowden was in HK and on Chinese territory, his safety became the responsibly of Beijing's whether Beijing wanted it or not. If Snowden disappeared or came to an unfortunate end no matter how innocent the circumstances, there will be plenty of conspiracy theories floating around and none of it would be good for China, as the bulk of them will either imply that the US 'got' Snowden and that China couldn't protect him, or that Beining off'ed him and that he really was a Chinese agent.
Well, I think the US get caught between the necessity of its domestic PR spin campaign and the need to get Snowden, and ultimately got outplayed.
The western media can be relied upon to downplay and bury the Snowden story as much as possible, but even they cannot ignore it altogether if the US is making moves internationally to put pressure on China or HK. I think the main reason Washington did not act sooner was because they wanted the story to die down and fade from the public's attention as much as possible.
If the US had made an extradition request and/or put Snowden on the FBI most wanted list with a big reward right from the start, there would have been no way for the western media to give it as little attention as it has.
I think the US thought that Snowden was effectively trapped in HK and they had plenty of time to let the story drop off the radar before they pressed HK and China, when the story could have been bured on page 17 rather than be frontpage news.
They did not expect Snowden to leave for Russia, or at least leave so soon, maybe like when his extradition was granted like in Assage's case, by which time it would be impossible for him to simply leave of his own choice. But that plan kinda backfired a little in that while they managed to put out PR fires at home, and largely succeed in killing the story in much of the western media, they did not put enough pressure on HK to force HK to stop Snowden from leaving without risking serious damage to their relations with the US.
Now that Putin has him, its a whole new ball game for the US since he seems to thrive on flipping the US off.
elvis has landed in Russia.
latest report I saw on phoenix. snowden has landed in Russia from a commercial flight from hong kong. interesting note the plane stopped in the runway before reaching the terminal where passengers usually disembark and snowden got off the plane with a vehicle picking him up. so he got off before the rest of the passengers and avoided the press.
Russian govt says snowden has not applied for political asylum yet.
this is from commentators: snowden is heading for either venezuala, cuba, Ecuador or Iceland
I think he is staying in Russia for awhile.
btw who cares about that chen guy visiting Taiwan! that's a pretty lame way of retaliating for snowden's little hong kong adventure.
latest report I saw on phoenix. snowden has landed in Russia from a commercial flight from hong kong. interesting note the plane stopped in the runway before reaching the terminal where passengers usually disembark and snowden got off the plane with a vehicle picking him up. so he got off before the rest of the passengers and avoided the press.
Russian govt says snowden has not applied for political asylum yet.
this is from commentators: snowden is heading for either venezuala, cuba, Ecuador or Iceland
I think he is staying in Russia for awhile.
btw who cares about that chen guy visiting Taiwan! that's a pretty lame way of retaliating for snowden's little hong kong adventure.
solarz
Brigadier
Now that Snowden is in Moscow, I wonder what those guys who accused him of being a Chinese spy will say.
Another thought:
Now that has the sound of finality to it. If she really knew nothing about what Snowden is up to, it sounds pretty bizarre to post a message like that.
I suspect that she knew Snowden's general plans, if not the details, and knows that he's not coming back to the US.
Another thought:
Snowden's girlfriend said:
Now that has the sound of finality to it. If she really knew nothing about what Snowden is up to, it sounds pretty bizarre to post a message like that.
I suspect that she knew Snowden's general plans, if not the details, and knows that he's not coming back to the US.
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