broadsword
Brigadier
Over at BBC.com, as usual, they don't allow comments in their reports of this controversy. But if it is about China controversies, especially regarding the dissidents, they open the flood gates.
The Snowden Affair
- Thread starter AssassinsMace
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MwRYum
Major
Yeah yeah, what a shocker...well, at least the Chinese found that out themselves in 2008, and overnight the truth drove them to the arms of Chinese government; y'know back then the Chinese turnout at torch relays drove way up because the BBC and CNN totally pissed them off.
And this time...hmmm...think everyone resigned to the fact that it's such a price to pay for the convenience in this digital age, and since the civilized world is at war against terrorism, if that's the price to pay for safety from bodily harm from terrorists, and it's the Big Brother measures (surveillance cameras and cellphone tracking) that caught the Boston Marathon bombers, then being snooped by the government would mostly be seen merely an embarrassing inconvenience.
Besides, even if the government ain't watching you, all the commercial enterprises who own the ISPs and servers are, and your surfing records as well as email address and name are the new commodity - how else do you think those junk mail senders got hold of your email address anyway? The bottom line is, if you use any telecommunication equipment, somebody will snooping at the background...and that's why UBL use courier and lived in a house that has no phone line.
Nah, you know the old saying: it ain't secret anymore if your mom already knew....unless you're already adult when commercial internet first became widely available, I bet most at least once got caught by your mom when your eyes were glued to porn site, worse if your hands were anywhere but your keyboard and mouse...I'm not sure how many Americans realise such records exist or that the NSA might have them, if the newspapers headlined with that, I dare say there would be a far bigger outcry as half the adult population break out in a cold sweat.
So it won't be a shocker, unless the publish data include what porn sites you surfed, in what frequency, even down to subscriptions status...now that will get the needed uproar.
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airsuperiority
Captain
ROFL US government is such a joke. You want HKSAR government to extradite Snowden, but you even screwed up his name and passport number on the extradition documents? And now you're trying to blame us for stalling the procedure and damaging HK-US relationships? HAHAHA
Hong Kong should send full-time tutors 補習天王 as goodwill ambassadors to US government to teach them proofread.
The newest threat to American national security and barrier stopping them from getting Snowden back turns out to be proofreading. I guess the millions of dollars NSA spent on studying the data of American citizens didn't teach them how to differentiate middle names on application forms properly.
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plawolf
Lieutenant General
Well, lets not kid ourselves about what HK did as there can be no doubt that Snowden was who the US wanted, and unless it said 'Joseph' on his passport, that should not matter if there is a slight discrepancy between what the US extradition request named him and what he filled out on the immigration card on the plane.
If his passport said 'Joseph' and the US extradition request said 'James', then technically the American side screwed up and have no one to blame but themselves for the mistake, but there would be no doubt that he was who the Americans wanted and if HK wanted to, they could have happily stopped him, disputed middle name or not. This is one of those examples where even though technically you didn't do anything wrong, morally you don't have a leg to stand on.
I would also not be too quick to laugh at America's gaff, as I dare say the State Department is probably going through all the documents they have from HK with a fine tooth comb looking for the slightest technical error to get their own back, so unless HK has made no errors whatsoever in every single document they have prepared and sign with the US, they can expect a load of tit-for-tat frivolous disputes to be raised by the American side as a result.
As for the passport number, well since the Americans canceled Snowden's American passport, technically Snowden had no valid passport, so of course he doesn't have a passport number, so I would not count that so much as a oversight by the Americans as much as extreme nit picking on the side of HK looking for any excuse to not have to detain Snowden.
airsuperiority
Captain
You're kinda right, although once again with HK acting completely by the book, it will all make sense for HKSAR. I also know that pretty much all official documents require the name to be displayed as shown on the passport, particularly those to do with foreign governments. I remembered that even when I enter my name for my air ticket, I have to enter it completely in the order and as it was shown on my passport, not even permitting the slightest alteration of order of first name, last name, middle name, initials. I made a mistake one time and had to redo the whole thing.
As for passport number, once again while I see the merits of your argument, I also feel that HKSAR government has the right to not permit this application. If at least the passport number is valid, there's something they can trace, or at least to claim both are referring to the same person, even if the middle name is different. However when even the middle name is so drastically different, by established norms it is inexcusable even if they know who they're talking about. Just because they know the Snowden the US wants, again, technically doesn't mean they should, or permit bypass to the document scanning procedures. When I was at a bank where a friend I knew since high school worked was there as teller, she still asked me for ID. And of course since the HKSAR gov't would need to document some case as important as this and put the identity into database, it would make sense they need everything properly done by the rules and the person properly identify. James and Joseph is too far off, especially without even passport number which is needed technically to hold the person and identity. I'd think that these 2 mistakes are too grave to ignore; such a big difference in middle name can lead to many different people or at least confuse the government on who they are apprehending, while the passport is one which identifies him as US national.
Despite that, your points are certainly valid.
solarz
Brigadier
The HK gov't could easily have detained or prevented Snowden from traveling had they wished to do so, while waiting for the US side to correct any technical mistakes. The fact is, they had no intention of doing so and that's why Snowden is in Moscow. That's the point the Americans are trying to make.
Let's face it, even if the Americans filled all the paperwork perfectly, the HK gov't would've found an excuse to let Snowden go anyway. I think the Americans were well aware of this, hence their half-assed effort. It's even quite possible that Snowden has sympathizers in the US administration.
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airsuperiority
Captain
Yep true. This guy is like the most popular whistleblower since Assange
solarz
Brigadier
What's relevant is that regardless of their party affiliation, none of the Washington politicians were willing to speak out against this gargantuan infringement on the supposed rights of the American people.
Meanwhile, they act as if issues like debt-ceilings were matters of life and death.
Precisely.
This was a secret operation that a lot of establishment politicians on both sides approved of...and they, the administration, and the heads of these agencies are angry because the lid has been blown off of it and revealed to the public.
The US needs to vote in and institute for the House and the Senate the same type of term limit that was put in place for the Presidency. Just too much "good old boy," buddy-buddy, and favortism and special interests driving these people after they have been there a few years. The get corrupted by it all. Two term senators, and four term representatives would put a lot of that to rest. Also, cut their fat salaries and perqs so that they cannot make a fortune off of it. Let them have a comfortable living, but not a lavish one.
As it is, as I indicated in my last post, and linked to...Snowden's revelations are leading to other, much higher placed whistle blowers coming out that they are trying to ignore for the time being...but I think the rat is out of the cage.
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U.S. won't do anything to Hong Kong, pffttt. China would just dump a couple billion treasury notes, cause the international bond market to panic, interests rates will soar, and U.S. will have to pay more money to finance her increasing debt burden without China's Great Wallet.
Nobody dares hurt China's cash cow that is Hong Kong.
Nobody dares hurt China's cash cow that is Hong Kong.
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